8 ms·

Now that AdBlock Plus is fully functional in Chrome/Chromium, we've been moving all of our clients -- a few hundred individuals and businesses -- off of Firefox

Now that AdBlock Plus is fully functional in Chrome/Chromium, we've been moving all of our clients -- a few hundred individuals and businesses -- off of Firefox. So far, everybody's been a lot happier with that. Firefox is terrible. It's embarrassing. And, I've completely lost interest in arguing over it anymore. The responses from Mozilla, Asa especially, have either been, "We don't think that's a problem", or sometimes, "go piss up a rope". Other people constantly chime in and say, "But I don't have that problem!", as if that somehow makes it better for the many many people who do have problems with Firefox. Fortunately, this isn't quite Netscape versus Internet Explorer all over again; this time, we have a well-supported third option, too.

bad_user 15y ago
Firefox is terrible. It's embarrassing. I do have Firefox occasionally choking, which annoys me as hell, but I'm on Firefox 8. I do get frustrated, but criticizing a software package that you get for freaking free, especially one that you ow so much to, with such a harsh tone really is unwarranted. And it really is free in a not-for-profit way. The Awesome bar that the article mentions really saves you from making useless round-trips to Google / being exposed to Google Ads, even if this hurts Mozilla's revenues; on the other hand Chrome's primary reason for being is Google's control on the web, ensuring that Google's search remains the default, which is one reason the Awesome bar will never make it into Chrome. Also, AdBlock Plus in Chrome has known bugs and limitations because of Chrome, because while Firefox is a platform, Chrome is a product that treats its users like idiots.
- DrCatbox 15y ago
  Chrome is a product that treats its users like idiots. Many, many products do that these days.
  - codecaine 15y ago
    which is actually a good thing
    - rimantas 15y ago
      Indeed, only I wouldn't phrase it like that. Maybe "gets out of the way". Remember Krug's "don't make me think"?
    - slowpoke 15y ago
      I disagree heavily. Treating more and more people like they are idiots in all areas of life is the reason we've become a lethargic, consume-drunken shade of society. This needs to stop. We need to force people to think. Think for themselves. Teach a man to fish and all that.
- InclinedPlane 15y ago
  Free doesn't play into it. Either something is good or it's not. One of the best aspects of OSS is that there are so many examples of products that are every bit as good, if not better than, their commercial competition. If I give you a free durian sandwich you are not obligated to like it or to hold back your criticism, you should be free to say "dude, this tastes like garbage water." Indeed, that line of reasoning has even less standing in regard to browsers since the top 4 browsers are all free. Encouraging people to stiffle their very real complaints will only serve to lower the quality of firefox, who does that benefit?
- shantanubala 15y ago
  "Chrome is a product that treats its users like idiots." I found myself agreeing with some of your points, but that comment was unnecessary. It's just two different design philosophies: Firefox allows extension of the browser itself at the cost of completely-silent upgrades and sandboxing, while Chrome treats extensions like miniature web pages. I agree that Chrome is a strategic move for Google, but it has made some definite contributions (like V8!) to free software. Not to mention it had a very unique interface when it was first launched (very well designed). Chrome was part of the reason why Mozilla is hustling to improve Firefox. If anything, appreciate Chrome for giving people more options and placing pressure on Mozilla to innovate.
- nknight 15y ago
  "Free" projects lose that excuse when they start making money through third parties (Google pays Mozilla a ton of money to be the default search engine) and make concentrated marketing pushes. I'm certainly going to treat them like I would any other ad-supported software, and that means treating them like any other commercial piece of software.
  - dredmorbius 15y ago
    Wrong "free". It's free as in speech, not beer. Though there's a Free Software implementation of Chrome as well: Chromium.
- kalleboo 15y ago
  > which is one reason the Awesome bar will never make it into Chrome. What does the AwesomeBar do that Chrome's address bar doesn't? Heck the Chrome address bar even does autocomplete of search terms when you have it set to use Bing…
  - ehsanu1 15y ago
    When I first started using Chrome, the awesomebar is probably what I missed most from Firefox. On Firefox, I type a partial keyword or two, and pages from history show up which are very relevant. Do the same on Chrome, and I usually have to finish a list of keywords to search Google in order to get to the page I'm thinking of. I ended up changing my address bar behavior on Chrome, but when I ran Firefox again for a while, I relearned my old behaviors by chance just by trying to search for stuff via the address bar, and instead finding the awesomebar offer what I was looking for with less effort. Once you get used to it, it really is inferior to how Chrome's address bar works. That said, Chrome has lots going for it as well.
mirkules 15y ago
The responses from Mozilla, Asa especially, have either been, "We don't think that's a problem", or sometimes, "go piss up a rope". I don't think this is very fair to the Mozilla folks. From the few people that I've met (and complained to about Android Firefox) the response has been "why don't you grab the latest version and see if that fixes the problems?" And if it doesn't, then the response is "file a bug." While I don't have any personal experience with Asa, he has responded to this article with exactly the same response (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3108498 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3108498).
- thaumaturgy 15y ago
  I was referring partly to Mozilla's responses to the reaction from corporate support people over their forced-updates announcements. But, they've also had display bugs around for almost 10 years [1], and they've banned bug submitters over etiquette issues without actually addressing the bug in question [2]. And now for the part that will probably make me really unpopular here: if they fix major issues in an upcoming update, that's great. But, people have been complaining for years about performance problems, and IMO there should have been a show-stopping effort to fix it a long time ago, rather than the incremental efforts that, to many users' perceptions, have made little to no improvement. The push towards rapid release cycles in many parts of the software industry seems to be leaving behind the principle of getting it right the first time. Anyway, that's all the time I have for this nonsense, because I've got a couple of projects of my own with unresolved issues, and I don't want to be a hypocrite. [1]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157846 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157846, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=289384 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=289384, others. [2]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=668655#c1 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=668655#c1, more discussion at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2741660 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2741660
  - wslh 15y ago
    We were also very tired arguing (on bugzilla) about Thunderbird issues that finally we wrote one of our most popular blog articles: Export messages and folders from Thunderbird to Outlook, Outlook Express and Windows Live Mail: http://blog.nektra.com/main/2009/04/14/export-messages-and-folders-from-thunderbird-to-outlook-outlook-express/ http://blog.nektra.com/main/2009/04/14/export-messages-and-f...
TheSOB88 15y ago
So, I don't notice much bad with FF, so I don't know what I'm missing. What am I missing? What makes FF terrible and Chrome goodly?
- diolpah 15y ago
  This is Hacker News, where everything anointed by Larry and Sergei is to be revered and worshiped by all, forever and ever, amen.
  - socillion 15y ago
    > Account created after prior account( haploid )was inexplicably silent-banned. A bit more civility might help you avoid a repeat of that.
    - diolpah 15y ago
      My understanding of the "civility" standard is whether I would say it in person. My comments do pass this test.
      - philwelch 15y ago
        That's more of a guideline aimed at people who aren't assholes in person.
        diolpah 15y ago
        Brilliant judgement you've made of someone you don't know. I'm sure this particular instance of incivility will garner you plenty of upvotes, however.
        mentat 15y ago
        Because people disagree with whether your approach is acceptable in any case. It's not that hard to understand.
acqq 15y ago
I switched from FF to Opera a few years ago and I'm still happy. FF really behaves bad, even on fast computers -- my girlfriend uses it and I've seen locks described in the OP. I use Opera on the Windows computer from 2002 and on my Linux Core 2 computer and it's very responsive on both.
jasonkostempski 15y ago
For a while the only reason I had Firefox installed was because of Firebug but the Chrome tools are getting to be just about as good and I've pretty much lost all interest in Firefox. I'll still have it around to make sure sites work in it but I certainly won't have it on all my machines.

bad_user 15y ago

Firefox is terrible. It's embarrassing. I do have Firefox occasionally choking, which annoys me as hell, but I'm on Firefox 8. I do get frustrated, but criticizing a software package that you get for freaking free, especially one that you ow so much to, with such a harsh tone really is unwarranted. And it really is free in a not-for-profit way. The Awesome bar that the article mentions really saves you from making useless round-trips to Google / being exposed to Google Ads, even if this hurts Mozilla's revenues; on the other hand Chrome's primary reason for being is Google's control on the web, ensuring that Google's search remains the default, which is one reason the Awesome bar will never make it into Chrome. Also, AdBlock Plus in Chrome has known bugs and limitations because of Chrome, because while Firefox is a platform, Chrome is a product that treats its users like idiots.

DrCatbox 15y ago
Chrome is a product that treats its users like idiots. Many, many products do that these days.
- codecaine 15y ago
  which is actually a good thing
  - rimantas 15y ago
    Indeed, only I wouldn't phrase it like that. Maybe "gets out of the way". Remember Krug's "don't make me think"?
  - slowpoke 15y ago
    I disagree heavily. Treating more and more people like they are idiots in all areas of life is the reason we've become a lethargic, consume-drunken shade of society. This needs to stop. We need to force people to think. Think for themselves. Teach a man to fish and all that.
InclinedPlane 15y ago
Free doesn't play into it. Either something is good or it's not. One of the best aspects of OSS is that there are so many examples of products that are every bit as good, if not better than, their commercial competition. If I give you a free durian sandwich you are not obligated to like it or to hold back your criticism, you should be free to say "dude, this tastes like garbage water." Indeed, that line of reasoning has even less standing in regard to browsers since the top 4 browsers are all free. Encouraging people to stiffle their very real complaints will only serve to lower the quality of firefox, who does that benefit?
shantanubala 15y ago
"Chrome is a product that treats its users like idiots." I found myself agreeing with some of your points, but that comment was unnecessary. It's just two different design philosophies: Firefox allows extension of the browser itself at the cost of completely-silent upgrades and sandboxing, while Chrome treats extensions like miniature web pages. I agree that Chrome is a strategic move for Google, but it has made some definite contributions (like V8!) to free software. Not to mention it had a very unique interface when it was first launched (very well designed). Chrome was part of the reason why Mozilla is hustling to improve Firefox. If anything, appreciate Chrome for giving people more options and placing pressure on Mozilla to innovate.
nknight 15y ago
"Free" projects lose that excuse when they start making money through third parties (Google pays Mozilla a ton of money to be the default search engine) and make concentrated marketing pushes. I'm certainly going to treat them like I would any other ad-supported software, and that means treating them like any other commercial piece of software.
- dredmorbius 15y ago
  Wrong "free". It's free as in speech, not beer. Though there's a Free Software implementation of Chrome as well: Chromium.
kalleboo 15y ago
> which is one reason the Awesome bar will never make it into Chrome. What does the AwesomeBar do that Chrome's address bar doesn't? Heck the Chrome address bar even does autocomplete of search terms when you have it set to use Bing…
- ehsanu1 15y ago
  When I first started using Chrome, the awesomebar is probably what I missed most from Firefox. On Firefox, I type a partial keyword or two, and pages from history show up which are very relevant. Do the same on Chrome, and I usually have to finish a list of keywords to search Google in order to get to the page I'm thinking of. I ended up changing my address bar behavior on Chrome, but when I ran Firefox again for a while, I relearned my old behaviors by chance just by trying to search for stuff via the address bar, and instead finding the awesomebar offer what I was looking for with less effort. Once you get used to it, it really is inferior to how Chrome's address bar works. That said, Chrome has lots going for it as well.

mirkules 15y ago

The responses from Mozilla, Asa especially, have either been, "We don't think that's a problem", or sometimes, "go piss up a rope". I don't think this is very fair to the Mozilla folks. From the few people that I've met (and complained to about Android Firefox) the response has been "why don't you grab the latest version and see if that fixes the problems?" And if it doesn't, then the response is "file a bug." While I don't have any personal experience with Asa, he has responded to this article with exactly the same response (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3108498 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3108498).

thaumaturgy 15y ago
I was referring partly to Mozilla's responses to the reaction from corporate support people over their forced-updates announcements. But, they've also had display bugs around for almost 10 years [1], and they've banned bug submitters over etiquette issues without actually addressing the bug in question [2]. And now for the part that will probably make me really unpopular here: if they fix major issues in an upcoming update, that's great. But, people have been complaining for years about performance problems, and IMO there should have been a show-stopping effort to fix it a long time ago, rather than the incremental efforts that, to many users' perceptions, have made little to no improvement. The push towards rapid release cycles in many parts of the software industry seems to be leaving behind the principle of getting it right the first time. Anyway, that's all the time I have for this nonsense, because I've got a couple of projects of my own with unresolved issues, and I don't want to be a hypocrite. [1]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157846 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157846, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=289384 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=289384, others. [2]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=668655#c1 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=668655#c1, more discussion at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2741660 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2741660
- wslh 15y ago
  We were also very tired arguing (on bugzilla) about Thunderbird issues that finally we wrote one of our most popular blog articles: Export messages and folders from Thunderbird to Outlook, Outlook Express and Windows Live Mail: http://blog.nektra.com/main/2009/04/14/export-messages-and-folders-from-thunderbird-to-outlook-outlook-express/ http://blog.nektra.com/main/2009/04/14/export-messages-and-f...

TheSOB88 15y ago

So, I don't notice much bad with FF, so I don't know what I'm missing. What am I missing? What makes FF terrible and Chrome goodly?

diolpah 15y ago
This is Hacker News, where everything anointed by Larry and Sergei is to be revered and worshiped by all, forever and ever, amen.
- socillion 15y ago
  > Account created after prior account( haploid )was inexplicably silent-banned. A bit more civility might help you avoid a repeat of that.
  - diolpah 15y ago
    My understanding of the "civility" standard is whether I would say it in person. My comments do pass this test.
    - philwelch 15y ago
      That's more of a guideline aimed at people who aren't assholes in person.
      - diolpah 15y ago
        Brilliant judgement you've made of someone you don't know. I'm sure this particular instance of incivility will garner you plenty of upvotes, however.
        mentat 15y ago
        Because people disagree with whether your approach is acceptable in any case. It's not that hard to understand.

acqq 15y ago

I switched from FF to Opera a few years ago and I'm still happy. FF really behaves bad, even on fast computers -- my girlfriend uses it and I've seen locks described in the OP. I use Opera on the Windows computer from 2002 and on my Linux Core 2 computer and it's very responsive on both.

jasonkostempski 15y ago

For a while the only reason I had Firefox installed was because of Firebug but the Chrome tools are getting to be just about as good and I've pretty much lost all interest in Firefox. I'll still have it around to make sure sites work in it but I certainly won't have it on all my machines.