6 ms·

“Independent pollsters”, my ass. According to their polls, Navalny support was 0-1% while so many people was arrested during demonstrations in his support in Mo

by pain2022 4y ago

“Independent pollsters”, my ass. According to their polls, Navalny support was 0-1% while so many people was arrested during demonstrations in his support in Moscow that thousands were put into immigrant detention center instead of regular jails. Also, people are scared they will get fired from their government jobs or worse if they voice opposition.

mk3 4y ago
You do realize Moscow is a multimillion city so the 10k demonstration is nothing.
- xtian 4y ago
  Also urban liberals aren’t representative of the country as a whole
  - Nerwesta 4y ago
    nailed it. That's a bias I'm surprised very few people are able to grasp in the Internets, the same urban liberals ( from any country really ) or higher class tend to favor Western social networks, or be simply pro-Western, thus completely biaising the " I'm [Insert your nationality here] .. blablabla " It's especially rampant on Global South or emerging countries, while the richer people can actually afford slacking on Reddit responding to a mostly Anglophone audience.
- pain2022 4y ago
  You do realize only a fraction of demonstration was arrested, and that for every person who risked getting beaten up and arrested there are many of his friends and relatives who support his views
  - zo1 4y ago
    That's why we have polls and statistics, instead of relying on the "most vocal" and supposedly "most courageous" people that "brave" the streets to protest. I personally don't buy it.
    - TremendousJudge 4y ago
      Any political poll conducted on an authoritarian state will not be trustworthy either. It's like going to a black neighborhood on the US and doing a poll on marijuana use. Many people will not admit to illegal activity. This is something an statistics professor will say in any basic introductory course.
    - purerandomness 4y ago
      Again, there are no independent institutions or media left who could conduct polls and statistics. All "polls and statistics" you see are basically fabricated by the government, either directly, or by induced fear.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    If you're going to make up numbers, why not make up a majority? Be more ambitious.
- green-eclipse 4y ago
  10k is absolutely something in an authoritarian country when there is no free speech at all or freedom of assembly. And serious repercussions for those seen as against Putin.
- lotusmars 4y ago
  10k is the number of people who were ready to be beaten, detained, tortured, have huge fines and later have their families harrassed.
- codedokode 4y ago
  You cannot claim that the only people who are against Putin are those who took part in illegal protests that are punished with hefty fines and arrests. Not everyone is that brave. While Putin might have high rating in the polls, his party United Russia could win only 50% of seats in Moscow Parliament in 2019 (after most popular independent candidates were not allowed to be in the ballot). Furthermore, members of United Russia nominated as independent candidates to hide their party affiliation. If you believe that only ten thousands people are against the government then how can you explain this? Another example is that Navalny was denied to register a political party for many years. If he has only 1% or 2% of supporters, as propaganda claims, why deny registering a party? Let him take part in election and get his deserved 1% with a disgrace (by the way, in 2013 Moscow Mayor election he got 27% of votes and obviously that was the last election he was allowed to take part in). So from the above facts I can conclude that Putin's support is not absolute. There are reasons why he doesn't allow to hold fair elections, why protests are not allowed, why all major mass media are controlled by the government and Internet is censored. You don't need this with true 80% voter support.
throwaway3968 4y ago
I've heard from my parents they would get fired from their non-government jobs too, if anti-war slogans were found on their social media. They also called me repeatedly asking not to participate in rallies, or they would "die of a heart attack". I used to organize those a few years back, and it sort of didn't end well.
honkdaddy 4y ago
Less than 10% of Russians live in Moscow, which is by far Russia's most liberal and Westernized city. The uncomfortable fact which progressives around the world seem to be having trouble with is that on average, most Russians absolutely do support the war and do see my family's home-country, Ukraine, as being a rightful part of Russia.
- CuriouslyC 4y ago
  - honkdaddy 4y ago
    I think the number of rural Americans who truly and earnestly wish death upon Black Americans is an absolutely tiny minority compared to the amount of rural Russians who support the invasion of Ukraine. I don't think your comparison really says anything interesting, apart from your bias against rural Americans.
  - JasonFruit 4y ago
    I think you get your opinions of rural Americans from fiction, because I've lived among rural people most of my life and met only one or two people who think that way, about the same frequency as people in cities. Art imitates life when that doesn't get in the way of emotional drama.
- alm1 4y ago
  It probably won't change your mind, but here is a pretty transparent poll on a mix of Russians at a train station in Moscow (to capture some from outside the metropolises). The multi hour poll is a continuous video to show lack of selection bias (parts with no speech are fast forwarded) https://youtu.be/eNwe24PlPTQ https://youtu.be/eNwe24PlPTQ About half the Russians don't support the war. I hope the conflict ends soon.
  - megous 4y ago
    Lack of selection bias would be selecting according to demography distribution. Looks like this sample has young people way overrepresented, by clikcing through a video. And young people support the war slightly less.
unicornporn 4y ago
Stop dreaming, support is strong. Washington Post via Levada reports an enormous 80-percent approval rating.[1] [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/03/26/putins-approval-rating-hits-80-percent/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/03/26...

mk3 4y ago

You do realize Moscow is a multimillion city so the 10k demonstration is nothing.

xtian 4y ago
Also urban liberals aren’t representative of the country as a whole
- Nerwesta 4y ago
  nailed it. That's a bias I'm surprised very few people are able to grasp in the Internets, the same urban liberals ( from any country really ) or higher class tend to favor Western social networks, or be simply pro-Western, thus completely biaising the " I'm [Insert your nationality here] .. blablabla " It's especially rampant on Global South or emerging countries, while the richer people can actually afford slacking on Reddit responding to a mostly Anglophone audience.
pain2022 4y ago
You do realize only a fraction of demonstration was arrested, and that for every person who risked getting beaten up and arrested there are many of his friends and relatives who support his views
- zo1 4y ago
  That's why we have polls and statistics, instead of relying on the "most vocal" and supposedly "most courageous" people that "brave" the streets to protest. I personally don't buy it.
  - TremendousJudge 4y ago
    Any political poll conducted on an authoritarian state will not be trustworthy either. It's like going to a black neighborhood on the US and doing a poll on marijuana use. Many people will not admit to illegal activity. This is something an statistics professor will say in any basic introductory course.
  - purerandomness 4y ago
    Again, there are no independent institutions or media left who could conduct polls and statistics. All "polls and statistics" you see are basically fabricated by the government, either directly, or by induced fear.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  If you're going to make up numbers, why not make up a majority? Be more ambitious.
green-eclipse 4y ago
10k is absolutely something in an authoritarian country when there is no free speech at all or freedom of assembly. And serious repercussions for those seen as against Putin.
lotusmars 4y ago
10k is the number of people who were ready to be beaten, detained, tortured, have huge fines and later have their families harrassed.
codedokode 4y ago
You cannot claim that the only people who are against Putin are those who took part in illegal protests that are punished with hefty fines and arrests. Not everyone is that brave. While Putin might have high rating in the polls, his party United Russia could win only 50% of seats in Moscow Parliament in 2019 (after most popular independent candidates were not allowed to be in the ballot). Furthermore, members of United Russia nominated as independent candidates to hide their party affiliation. If you believe that only ten thousands people are against the government then how can you explain this? Another example is that Navalny was denied to register a political party for many years. If he has only 1% or 2% of supporters, as propaganda claims, why deny registering a party? Let him take part in election and get his deserved 1% with a disgrace (by the way, in 2013 Moscow Mayor election he got 27% of votes and obviously that was the last election he was allowed to take part in). So from the above facts I can conclude that Putin's support is not absolute. There are reasons why he doesn't allow to hold fair elections, why protests are not allowed, why all major mass media are controlled by the government and Internet is censored. You don't need this with true 80% voter support.

throwaway3968 4y ago

I've heard from my parents they would get fired from their non-government jobs too, if anti-war slogans were found on their social media. They also called me repeatedly asking not to participate in rallies, or they would "die of a heart attack". I used to organize those a few years back, and it sort of didn't end well.

honkdaddy 4y ago

Less than 10% of Russians live in Moscow, which is by far Russia's most liberal and Westernized city. The uncomfortable fact which progressives around the world seem to be having trouble with is that on average, most Russians absolutely do support the war and do see my family's home-country, Ukraine, as being a rightful part of Russia.

CuriouslyC 4y ago
- honkdaddy 4y ago
  I think the number of rural Americans who truly and earnestly wish death upon Black Americans is an absolutely tiny minority compared to the amount of rural Russians who support the invasion of Ukraine. I don't think your comparison really says anything interesting, apart from your bias against rural Americans.
- JasonFruit 4y ago
  I think you get your opinions of rural Americans from fiction, because I've lived among rural people most of my life and met only one or two people who think that way, about the same frequency as people in cities. Art imitates life when that doesn't get in the way of emotional drama.
alm1 4y ago
It probably won't change your mind, but here is a pretty transparent poll on a mix of Russians at a train station in Moscow (to capture some from outside the metropolises). The multi hour poll is a continuous video to show lack of selection bias (parts with no speech are fast forwarded) https://youtu.be/eNwe24PlPTQ https://youtu.be/eNwe24PlPTQ About half the Russians don't support the war. I hope the conflict ends soon.
- megous 4y ago
  Lack of selection bias would be selecting according to demography distribution. Looks like this sample has young people way overrepresented, by clikcing through a video. And young people support the war slightly less.

unicornporn 4y ago

Stop dreaming, support is strong. Washington Post via Levada reports an enormous 80-percent approval rating.[1] [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/03/26/putins-approval-rating-hits-80-percent/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/03/26...