5 ms·

Are there any air superiority combat drones operational yet? I won't argue that it seems likely that manned dogfights are going to die eventually, but that mome

by WJW 5y ago

Are there any air superiority combat drones operational yet? I won't argue that it seems likely that manned dogfights are going to die eventually, but that moment also seems at least a decade away. Until then a F-35 with long range missiles seems to be one of the more lethal things in the air today, even if it is rather expensive. NATO has like 20x the defense budget compared to Russia though, so it's fine not to have the cheapest weapons available.

formerly_proven 5y ago
F-35 unit prices are not high and keep getting lower due to the sheer scale of production. Many 4.5 gen fighters are actually more expensive yet less capable than the F-35. Most anti-F-35 arguments are "informed" by the likes of Pierre Sprey.
- hef19898 5y ago
  Which systems are out there that are actually comparable to the JSF? Both the Eurofighter and the Rafale are one gen older (not sure if that actually matters that much so). Which leaves the Russian and Chinese planes, for which cost is hard to come by.
  - dghlsakjg 5y ago
    Maybe the f-22, although that isn’t in production anymore
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - greedo 5y ago
    Chinese FC-31 is close to the F-35 (in design and theory, but who knows about actual performance), but it's not in production yet.
    - yobbo 5y ago
      Looking at pictures, it has two visible round jet nozzles which suggests it has much higher radar cross-section and IR-signature than F-35.
      - greedo 5y ago
        It's extremely difficult to evaluate RCS by looking visually at an aircraft. Who would have thought that the F-117 would be stealthy? And the reason the F-35 only has one engine is because it has a much higher thrust than the RD-93 on the FC31. This increase in thrust "might" increase its IR signature, and neither has any IR shielding like on the F-22.
alexvoda 5y ago
The usefulness of long range missiles depends on the rules of engagement. If the F-35 will be allowed to shoot targets over the horizon based only on instruments, it will most probably work as intended. If visual confirmation will be required, it will be a boondoggle.
- a_crc 5y ago
  Could you expand on this? I'm struggling to imagine a realistic scenario where visual confirmation of a target would be a requirement. I also don't see why an F-35 is at a major disadvantage inside visual range of a target. (FYI Visual range is farther than short range air to air missiles and much farther than gun range.)
  - hef19898 5y ago
    Roughly, because the stealthier an aircraft is the less maneuverable it an be. Also, you need ammunition for a dog fight, which is mostly carried on the wings negating any stealth characteristics. And large internal bays make an aircraft less maneuverable.
  - throwawayffffas 5y ago
    The AIM-54 Phoenix was used 2 times with exactly zero kills, because of ID concerns[1]. You don't just go around firing missiles to radar tracks you can't identify. [1] by the US, Iran has used it more with more success. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-54_Phoenix#U.S._combat_experience https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-54_Phoenix#U.S._combat_exp...
    - a_crc 5y ago
      The article you linked makes it sound like sensor and rocketry failures on some platforms that were retired 15 years ago, nothing to do with a general fear of BVR missile use. Also I believe the willingness to engage unidentified radar tracks has more to do with the nature of the conflict. I doubt the same restraint would be shown in a war against a near peer foe.
throwawayffffas 5y ago
> Are there any air superiority combat drones operational yet? From what I have seen reported every major player is working on "loyal wingmen". Autonomous drones that would fly along manned aircraft. That way you supposedly get the best of both worlds, the situational awareness and judgement of a human along the expendability of a drone.
- WJW 5y ago
  Yes I know everyone wants such drones, but AFAIK nobody has them other than a few prototypes. Developing a prototype far enough to get to an fully operational platform (including things like logistics, training the operators and mechanics, developing doctrines, etc etc etc) can take decades.

by WJW 5y ago

formerly_proven 5y ago

F-35 unit prices are not high and keep getting lower due to the sheer scale of production. Many 4.5 gen fighters are actually more expensive yet less capable than the F-35. Most anti-F-35 arguments are "informed" by the likes of Pierre Sprey.

hef19898 5y ago
Which systems are out there that are actually comparable to the JSF? Both the Eurofighter and the Rafale are one gen older (not sure if that actually matters that much so). Which leaves the Russian and Chinese planes, for which cost is hard to come by.
- dghlsakjg 5y ago
  Maybe the f-22, although that isn’t in production anymore
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- greedo 5y ago
  Chinese FC-31 is close to the F-35 (in design and theory, but who knows about actual performance), but it's not in production yet.
  - yobbo 5y ago
    Looking at pictures, it has two visible round jet nozzles which suggests it has much higher radar cross-section and IR-signature than F-35.
    - greedo 5y ago
      It's extremely difficult to evaluate RCS by looking visually at an aircraft. Who would have thought that the F-117 would be stealthy? And the reason the F-35 only has one engine is because it has a much higher thrust than the RD-93 on the FC31. This increase in thrust "might" increase its IR signature, and neither has any IR shielding like on the F-22.

alexvoda 5y ago

The usefulness of long range missiles depends on the rules of engagement. If the F-35 will be allowed to shoot targets over the horizon based only on instruments, it will most probably work as intended. If visual confirmation will be required, it will be a boondoggle.

a_crc 5y ago
Could you expand on this? I'm struggling to imagine a realistic scenario where visual confirmation of a target would be a requirement. I also don't see why an F-35 is at a major disadvantage inside visual range of a target. (FYI Visual range is farther than short range air to air missiles and much farther than gun range.)
- hef19898 5y ago
  Roughly, because the stealthier an aircraft is the less maneuverable it an be. Also, you need ammunition for a dog fight, which is mostly carried on the wings negating any stealth characteristics. And large internal bays make an aircraft less maneuverable.
- throwawayffffas 5y ago
  The AIM-54 Phoenix was used 2 times with exactly zero kills, because of ID concerns[1]. You don't just go around firing missiles to radar tracks you can't identify. [1] by the US, Iran has used it more with more success. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-54_Phoenix#U.S._combat_experience https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-54_Phoenix#U.S._combat_exp...
  - a_crc 5y ago
    The article you linked makes it sound like sensor and rocketry failures on some platforms that were retired 15 years ago, nothing to do with a general fear of BVR missile use. Also I believe the willingness to engage unidentified radar tracks has more to do with the nature of the conflict. I doubt the same restraint would be shown in a war against a near peer foe.

throwawayffffas 5y ago

> Are there any air superiority combat drones operational yet? From what I have seen reported every major player is working on "loyal wingmen". Autonomous drones that would fly along manned aircraft. That way you supposedly get the best of both worlds, the situational awareness and judgement of a human along the expendability of a drone.

WJW 5y ago
Yes I know everyone wants such drones, but AFAIK nobody has them other than a few prototypes. Developing a prototype far enough to get to an fully operational platform (including things like logistics, training the operators and mechanics, developing doctrines, etc etc etc) can take decades.