4 ms·

> it's impossible to prove the absence of something True, but in this case it was quite easy to prove the presence of anti-semitism in the Labour party, especi

by Veen 5y ago

> it's impossible to prove the absence of something True, but in this case it was quite easy to prove the presence of anti-semitism in the Labour party, especially in the far left membership.

foxhill 5y ago
for what it’s worth, i’m yet to find an individual that was able to concretely identify a single anti-semitic action or statement both in the run up to, and after the november 2019 election. edit: probably worth mentioning, i read the report of the external investigation (all ~300 pages of it) on antisemitism in the labour party. to call it thin on the ground is somewhat of an understatement.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
coldtea 5y ago
It's easy if you make it up. It's also easy to find "presence of anything" in some members of any large group, including satanism, doesn't mean it defines the group or is a big element of it.
- Veen 5y ago
  And this attitude is why hundreds of thousands of liberal and left-wing Jews no longer support the Labour party.
  - coldtea 5y ago
    Which attitude? Basic sense?
    - Veen 5y ago
      Are you implying that all those Jews worried about anti-semitism in the Labour Party lack basic sense? I'm not sure they're likely to find that a comforting response.
      - Chris2048 5y ago
        No, they where clarifying what you meant, It's your opinion that "this" is the cause.
      - coldtea 5y ago
        Are you weasel-wording strawmen? Maybe, don't do that? First, who are "all those Jews"? This is handwaving to make it sound like multitudes. Second, people worrying about anti-semitism in the Labour party in general, either lack common sense (if we accept your argument that is "this attitude" I wrote about above that is their concern), or conflate anti-semitism (as in Hitler, Nazis, pogroms, and co) with criticism of actions by the state of Israel. In fact, actual jews in favor of Corbyn and the party have been accused of "anti-semitism" (!) - like the Jewish Voice for Labour (jewish members of the UK Labour Party, because they are nonetheless critical about the situation with Palestine).
  - OtomotO 5y ago
    And this is why divide et impera always works
pydry 5y ago
You were 5x more likely to be purged from the Labour party as a Jew than as a non Jew: https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/labour-is-purging-jews-we-are-the-wrong-kind-of-jews/ https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/labour-is-pu... This wasnt antiracists purging antisemites. It was racists purging antiracists.
- smcl 5y ago
  This "5x more likely" sounds horrific ... until you look at how it was reached: """ According to Labour statistics, by March 2021 there had been 1,450 "actioned complaints" against Labour party members in relation to allegations of antisemitism - equivalent to 0.29 percent of Labour’s membership, which averaged 500,000 between 2015 and 2020, when Corbyn was leader. By contrast, says JVL, there were at least 35 actioned complaints against Jewish members. This is equivalent to 1.4 percent of Jewish members, who the group estimate to have numbered around 2,500 during the same period. """ Having 35 "actioned complaints" against Jewish members does not sound like a purge from the Labour Party, and portraying it as such is pretty misleading. I'm also wondering if there's some careful wording here, since they're comparing a total number of actioned complaints against Jewish members, vs number of actioned complaints specifically relating to allegations of antisemitism. Interesting that one of the two authors of the article is a Conservative (ie, the party Labour is in opposition to)
  - pydry 5y ago
    >Having 35 "actioned complaints" against Jewish members does not sound like a purge from the Labour Party 35 isnt a purge. > 1000 IS a purge. The fact that being an Jewish made it 5x more likely you would be purged simply underscored the fact that it was exclusively a project to purge anti-racists who were critical of Israel. This point was underscored again when the party hired an ex Israeli intelligence agent.
    - smcl 5y ago
      I have misunderstood you then, I thought you were saying this was an purge designed to target Jewish members of the party, which didn’t seem to be the case to me.

by Veen 5y ago

> it's impossible to prove the absence of something True, but in this case it was quite easy to prove the presence of anti-semitism in the Labour party, especially in the far left membership.

foxhill 5y ago

for what it’s worth, i’m yet to find an individual that was able to concretely identify a single anti-semitic action or statement both in the run up to, and after the november 2019 election. edit: probably worth mentioning, i read the report of the external investigation (all ~300 pages of it) on antisemitism in the labour party. to call it thin on the ground is somewhat of an understatement.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

coldtea 5y ago

It's easy if you make it up. It's also easy to find "presence of anything" in some members of any large group, including satanism, doesn't mean it defines the group or is a big element of it.

Veen 5y ago
And this attitude is why hundreds of thousands of liberal and left-wing Jews no longer support the Labour party.
- coldtea 5y ago
  Which attitude? Basic sense?
  - Veen 5y ago
    Are you implying that all those Jews worried about anti-semitism in the Labour Party lack basic sense? I'm not sure they're likely to find that a comforting response.
    - Chris2048 5y ago
      No, they where clarifying what you meant, It's your opinion that "this" is the cause.
    - coldtea 5y ago
      Are you weasel-wording strawmen? Maybe, don't do that? First, who are "all those Jews"? This is handwaving to make it sound like multitudes. Second, people worrying about anti-semitism in the Labour party in general, either lack common sense (if we accept your argument that is "this attitude" I wrote about above that is their concern), or conflate anti-semitism (as in Hitler, Nazis, pogroms, and co) with criticism of actions by the state of Israel. In fact, actual jews in favor of Corbyn and the party have been accused of "anti-semitism" (!) - like the Jewish Voice for Labour (jewish members of the UK Labour Party, because they are nonetheless critical about the situation with Palestine).
- OtomotO 5y ago
  And this is why divide et impera always works

pydry 5y ago

You were 5x more likely to be purged from the Labour party as a Jew than as a non Jew: https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/labour-is-purging-jews-we-are-the-wrong-kind-of-jews/ https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/labour-is-pu... This wasnt antiracists purging antisemites. It was racists purging antiracists.

smcl 5y ago
This "5x more likely" sounds horrific ... until you look at how it was reached: """ According to Labour statistics, by March 2021 there had been 1,450 "actioned complaints" against Labour party members in relation to allegations of antisemitism - equivalent to 0.29 percent of Labour’s membership, which averaged 500,000 between 2015 and 2020, when Corbyn was leader. By contrast, says JVL, there were at least 35 actioned complaints against Jewish members. This is equivalent to 1.4 percent of Jewish members, who the group estimate to have numbered around 2,500 during the same period. """ Having 35 "actioned complaints" against Jewish members does not sound like a purge from the Labour Party, and portraying it as such is pretty misleading. I'm also wondering if there's some careful wording here, since they're comparing a total number of actioned complaints against Jewish members, vs number of actioned complaints specifically relating to allegations of antisemitism. Interesting that one of the two authors of the article is a Conservative (ie, the party Labour is in opposition to)
- pydry 5y ago
  >Having 35 "actioned complaints" against Jewish members does not sound like a purge from the Labour Party 35 isnt a purge. > 1000 IS a purge. The fact that being an Jewish made it 5x more likely you would be purged simply underscored the fact that it was exclusively a project to purge anti-racists who were critical of Israel. This point was underscored again when the party hired an ex Israeli intelligence agent.
  - smcl 5y ago
    I have misunderstood you then, I thought you were saying this was an purge designed to target Jewish members of the party, which didn’t seem to be the case to me.