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Israel was also behind many of the efforts to smear the former opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn - https://www.middleeasteye.net/fr/news/israeli-diplomat-sought-s

Israel was also behind many of the efforts to smear the former opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn - https://www.middleeasteye.net/fr/news/israeli-diplomat-sought-set-labour-group-undermine-crazy-corbyn-1016879568 https://www.middleeasteye.net/fr/news/israeli-diplomat-sough... The current government is a huge ally of Israel.

mschuster91 5y ago
- OtomotO 5y ago
  I have a problem with Israel and its politics, not with Jews or any other religion. Does that make me an antisemit? Because then the term has been redefined and I'll gladly wear it
  - smcl 5y ago
    If you simply dislike how Israel is treating Palestinians (and maybe support BDS) then no it does not, so you should not accept that label.
- dijit 5y ago
  That's not really how smear campaigns work. Using a very extreme example: if I got 4 people to call you a pedophile, then people will believe it until you submit proof that you're not. The problem is that it's impossible to prove the absence of something, so you're forced to push back on me: "Where's your proof that I'm a pedophile", where I can reply with anecdotes or other useless information. The point is not to "prove" you are a pedophile in that case, the point is to make people associate your name with pedophilia, and to make it unclear if you are or if you aren't. 80% of people will not look further into it. Pedophilia is probably too extreme of an example and people may be more critical of pedophilia accusations than, say, racism ones.
  - Veen 5y ago
    > it's impossible to prove the absence of something True, but in this case it was quite easy to prove the presence of anti-semitism in the Labour party, especially in the far left membership.
    - foxhill 5y ago
      for what it’s worth, i’m yet to find an individual that was able to concretely identify a single anti-semitic action or statement both in the run up to, and after the november 2019 election. edit: probably worth mentioning, i read the report of the external investigation (all ~300 pages of it) on antisemitism in the labour party. to call it thin on the ground is somewhat of an understatement.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - coldtea 5y ago
      It's easy if you make it up. It's also easy to find "presence of anything" in some members of any large group, including satanism, doesn't mean it defines the group or is a big element of it.
      - Veen 5y ago
        And this attitude is why hundreds of thousands of liberal and left-wing Jews no longer support the Labour party.
        coldtea 5y ago
        Which attitude? Basic sense?
        Veen 5y ago
        Are you implying that all those Jews worried about anti-semitism in the Labour Party lack basic sense? I'm not sure they're likely to find that a comforting response.
- emsixteen 5y ago
  Do they really though? Honestly?
- mattmanser 5y ago
  When did it become a "massive" issue? It was a few isolated incidents that were handled badly. What has happened exactly please? There's been no reports of 'massive' issues. I think you might exaggerating the actual allegations. Also very suspicious that some of the biggest advocates for Palestinian rights have suddenly become anti-Semites seemingly overnight. The conversation has moved from Israel's utterly disgusting treatment of the Palestinians to almost trivial claims of anti-Semitism. One a systematic and brutal campaign of regression against hundreds of thousands of people, the other a few people got called names. I always thought it was probably a very successfully Mossad smear campaign akin to Putin's anti-Hilary campaign. And a lot of the British press helped because they hated Corbyn.
  - raxxorraxor 5y ago
- pydry 5y ago
  The only thing the Israeli lobby attacked him for was not being their kind of racist. They dont even give a damn about anti semitism. They backed Orban when he put out hook nosed Jew campaign adverts because he backed Israel and they treasure their relationship with anti semitic US evangelicals. That particular smear campaign wasnt very effective but it was remarkable in its audaciousness - just like the fantastically stupid czech spy smear.
- cyberpunk 5y ago
  Israel plays the anti-semitism card much too loosely to be taken seriously. The issues I have with Israel are because of the actions of its government and absolutely nothing to do with the majority religion there. If you criticise Israel, you're an anti-semite. We're all scared of being called such, so we let them do whatever the fuck they want. Fuck Israel; but not because of their religion.
  - gpt5 5y ago
    > Israel plays the anti-semitism card much too loosely to be taken seriously They use it in very specific circumstances that relate to criticizing the idea of Israel being a Jewish state. I can understand that people may innocently criticize this, due to missing the historical context of why Israel was created, but I agree that this form of criticism against Israel should be condemned. P.S. There are very specific actions by the Israeli government that I do condemn. Notably, not stopping settlement expansion in the West Bank. However most comments against Israel are far more gangue and sensationalist.
    - pjc50 5y ago
      The problem with Israel being "a Jewish state" is that requires the suppression and occasionally ethnic cleansing of its non-Jewish residents in order to prevent them from ever achieving enough numbers or power to make it not Jewish. It's a fundamental contradiction embedded from the Israeli declaration of independence (which commits to racial and religious equality) onwards: what does it mean for a state, rather than individuals, to be Jewish? The underlying argument is that it's necessary for the continued survival and security of Jewish people that there be a Jewish state, and unfortunately the continuous attacks on Israel suggest they might be right.
    - gghhzzgghhzz 5y ago
      I think you can point out that any state founded on ethno or religious grounds is a bad idea. Although in this case given when it was formed and why that clearly adds a lot of context. You can certainly state that the right of self-determination doesn't trump the rights of others. So a Jewish state somewhere is a right, but not if there are already people living in that particular somewhere who object. You can also state that predominantly European migration to a part of the world where there are other people living has been somewhere between a mistake and a disaster and a tragedy, be that America, Australia or Israel. I think the last part is the issue that causes much of the problems. Many people in Labour party wanted to protect the right of those directly affected by the migration to call it out in their terms. We wouldn't deny native americans or aborigines using terms like 'racist' to describe what has happened to them. Yet the misuse of the IHRA examples (turning examples into a legal definition) did exactly that. And many people in Labour objected. I can understand the continuing need for there to always be a place of safety for Jews. Although it's tragic that this is the case, but understandable, not least given the holocaust still being within living memory. The current direction of Israel can't be it though, there has to be some other way.
- DSingularity 5y ago
  What a weak argument — but let’s humor this idiocy. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you are saying that smear campaigns are built exclusively on “solid truth”? So you think it is impossible for anyone to organize a smear campaign based on lies and/or misrepresentation? Seems naive to me. I wonder, are you just trying to add to the “labor is anti-Semitic” smears that Zionists push online? You know the smears they push because they have no answer to the criticism that zionist Israelis are (a) stealing other peoples lands through settlements (b) supporting racist Apartheid laws and (c) supporting a criminal state which regularly oppresses and violates the universally-acknowledged rights of the native population.
  - JoBrad 5y ago
    I took their meaning to be that successful disinformation includes enough truth to provide some level of plausibility. That doesn’t mean that truth is at the core of the smear, or even that it’s a “whole” truth. Epstein had many rich and powerful friends. Epstein was a pedophile. Epstein died within an inexcusable lapse in custody. These are all truths. Combine them together into the Q narrative, and now you have a massive conspiracy that is mostly wild speculation but contains some kernels of truth.
- eutectic 5y ago
  You mean a smear campaign like the blood libel?
- coldtea 5y ago
  >Face it, Corbyn and the Labour Party do have a massive issue with antisemitism Only if we define it as criticism of Israeli policy. Otherwise, that's a smear, substituting criticism with antisemitism. >A smear campaign can only be really effective if there is a solid truth behind it. Nope, it can be very effective without any truth. Try smearing someone as a pedophile - you think they'll be able to wash it off? Goebbels, for one, advised for complete lies, repeated often. In fact, a complete huge lie can be even more believable, as people go "would they said something that great, if it wasn't at least a bit true?".
  - Ntrails 5y ago
    > Only if we define it as criticism of Israeli policy. Which appears to basically be the criteria these days - which is terrifying.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- sofixa 5y ago
  Some left-leaning organisations across Europe supporting Palestine is not antisemitism, regardless of what nationalistic Israelis might say. Is there any proof whatsoever for those claims or is it like the Labour party "scandals" that are taken out of proportion as a part of a smear campaign? For instance in France there are multiple left parties, and none of them are antisemitic in any real sense of the word.
  - willmw101 5y ago
    https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/french-presidential-candidate-jewish-school-murders-part-of-conspiracy-670481 https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/french-president... >Jean-Luc Melenchon, a far-left politician running for France's presidency next year has suggested that a jihadist's 2012 murder of Jews was part of an elections conspiracy.
- cloutchaser 5y ago
  I can't believe you've been downvoted to oblivion. Labour party antisemitism goes way beyond criticism of isreal, including support for hezbollah and hamas. https://labourhatesjews.wordpress.com/2017/06/05/29-examples-of-labour-anti-semitism/ https://labourhatesjews.wordpress.com/2017/06/05/29-examples... Also: Jeremy Corbyn faces fury after praising ‘brilliant’ book which claims Jews control world banks https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8975188/jeremy-corbyn-praises-jews-control-banks-book/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8975188/jeremy-corbyn-praises-... Corbyn also backed the artist behind the mural clearly depicting evil jews controlling the world like a board game: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/23/corbyn-criticised-after-backing-artist-behind-antisemitic-mural https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/23/corbyn-crit... The excusing away of this behaviour on HN is crazy, it's not just about isreal. Not by a long shot.
  - gghhzzgghhzz 5y ago
    These are again examples without context. e.g. on Hobson's book. This was a book that was widely referenced. Certainly referencing it didn't mean endorsement of Hobson's antisemitism ( a few lines in that book).. like praising the works of many other authors of the time that contain antisemetic references. Here's the then leader of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg citing Hobson. http://www.demos.co.uk/files/Liberal_moment_-_EMBARGOED_18.09.09.pdf http://www.demos.co.uk/files/Liberal_moment_-_EMBARGOED_18.0... Or Blair: "J.A Hobson was probably the most famour Liberal convert to what was the literally 'new Labour'" or Gordon Brown "In Britain, this idea of liberty as empowerment is not a new idea, J A Hobson asked, “is a man free who has not equal opportunity with his fellows of such access to all material and moral means of personal development and work as shall contribute to his own welfare and that of his society?”" Is the same for all other cases. This is how smearing works. People take something that happened (that cannot be denied) and then insist this is proof. If the person says nothing they seem guilty, if the person tries to explain and put things into context they seem guilty.
    - cloutchaser 5y ago
      Ok, how about the others?
- mxmilkiib 5y ago
  Afaiu, the solid truth was that higher-up admin people of the Parliamentary Labour Party HQ, which is separate from the office of the Leader Of The Opposition, failed to do the investigating, partly due to the fear and hate of Corbyn in the PLP, but then LOTO took the blame (partly cos Corbyn isn't the greatest of communicators). Novara did various detailed videos on the whole saga, including looking at the PLP WhatsApp leaks. https://youtu.be/G02ZZY_KE4E https://youtu.be/G02ZZY_KE4E https://youtu.be/ZjNB7fGc1-A https://youtu.be/ZjNB7fGc1-A etc
simonh 5y ago
Every British government has been an ally of Israel. You don't turn down a relationship with a country with Israel's military, technical and intelligence capabilities, and worth $5bn in bilateral trade for nothing if you have any sense.
- youngtaff 5y ago
  We did with Europe and the trade is worth way more than $5bn
  - simonh 5y ago
    And we're allies with the EU to this day. What's your point?
    - youngtaff 5y ago
      We threw away billions in trade with the EU over not really that much, why would not throw away a far smaller sum when it comes to another country that was spying on us? How much the UK and EU are allies remains to be seen too
- caoilte 5y ago
  UK bilateral trade with Russia was ~$17 billion in 2021 (i assume that's imports plus exports right?). Russia was a very close friend twenty years ago, Iraq was a very close ally in the 1980s. I'm sure Israel realises how quickly the west can turn on friends and allies when it suits us and that this is why they spend tens of millions a year wooing US and UK politicians. Russia became a pariah over night and the moment it becomes politically convenient to diplomatically recognise Israel as an apartheid state the trade won't count for anything (not least because most of it is the direct consequence of billions in annual US subsidies)
  - simonh 5y ago
    Russia's been a pain in the arse continuously. 20 years ago they were up to their eyeballs in the Iranian nuclear programme, carpet bombing Chechnya, blowing up their own apartment blocks and blaming it on terrorists, destabilising Georgia and goodness knows what else. That's all just from memory. But they have a lot of oil and gas so we let it all slide. More fool us.

mschuster91 5y ago

OtomotO 5y ago
I have a problem with Israel and its politics, not with Jews or any other religion. Does that make me an antisemit? Because then the term has been redefined and I'll gladly wear it
- smcl 5y ago
  If you simply dislike how Israel is treating Palestinians (and maybe support BDS) then no it does not, so you should not accept that label.
dijit 5y ago
That's not really how smear campaigns work. Using a very extreme example: if I got 4 people to call you a pedophile, then people will believe it until you submit proof that you're not. The problem is that it's impossible to prove the absence of something, so you're forced to push back on me: "Where's your proof that I'm a pedophile", where I can reply with anecdotes or other useless information. The point is not to "prove" you are a pedophile in that case, the point is to make people associate your name with pedophilia, and to make it unclear if you are or if you aren't. 80% of people will not look further into it. Pedophilia is probably too extreme of an example and people may be more critical of pedophilia accusations than, say, racism ones.
- Veen 5y ago
  > it's impossible to prove the absence of something True, but in this case it was quite easy to prove the presence of anti-semitism in the Labour party, especially in the far left membership.
  - foxhill 5y ago
    for what it’s worth, i’m yet to find an individual that was able to concretely identify a single anti-semitic action or statement both in the run up to, and after the november 2019 election. edit: probably worth mentioning, i read the report of the external investigation (all ~300 pages of it) on antisemitism in the labour party. to call it thin on the ground is somewhat of an understatement.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - coldtea 5y ago
    It's easy if you make it up. It's also easy to find "presence of anything" in some members of any large group, including satanism, doesn't mean it defines the group or is a big element of it.
    - Veen 5y ago
      And this attitude is why hundreds of thousands of liberal and left-wing Jews no longer support the Labour party.
      - coldtea 5y ago
        Which attitude? Basic sense?
        Veen 5y ago
        Are you implying that all those Jews worried about anti-semitism in the Labour Party lack basic sense? I'm not sure they're likely to find that a comforting response.
emsixteen 5y ago
Do they really though? Honestly?
mattmanser 5y ago
When did it become a "massive" issue? It was a few isolated incidents that were handled badly. What has happened exactly please? There's been no reports of 'massive' issues. I think you might exaggerating the actual allegations. Also very suspicious that some of the biggest advocates for Palestinian rights have suddenly become anti-Semites seemingly overnight. The conversation has moved from Israel's utterly disgusting treatment of the Palestinians to almost trivial claims of anti-Semitism. One a systematic and brutal campaign of regression against hundreds of thousands of people, the other a few people got called names. I always thought it was probably a very successfully Mossad smear campaign akin to Putin's anti-Hilary campaign. And a lot of the British press helped because they hated Corbyn.
- raxxorraxor 5y ago
pydry 5y ago
The only thing the Israeli lobby attacked him for was not being their kind of racist. They dont even give a damn about anti semitism. They backed Orban when he put out hook nosed Jew campaign adverts because he backed Israel and they treasure their relationship with anti semitic US evangelicals. That particular smear campaign wasnt very effective but it was remarkable in its audaciousness - just like the fantastically stupid czech spy smear.
cyberpunk 5y ago
Israel plays the anti-semitism card much too loosely to be taken seriously. The issues I have with Israel are because of the actions of its government and absolutely nothing to do with the majority religion there. If you criticise Israel, you're an anti-semite. We're all scared of being called such, so we let them do whatever the fuck they want. Fuck Israel; but not because of their religion.
- gpt5 5y ago
  > Israel plays the anti-semitism card much too loosely to be taken seriously They use it in very specific circumstances that relate to criticizing the idea of Israel being a Jewish state. I can understand that people may innocently criticize this, due to missing the historical context of why Israel was created, but I agree that this form of criticism against Israel should be condemned. P.S. There are very specific actions by the Israeli government that I do condemn. Notably, not stopping settlement expansion in the West Bank. However most comments against Israel are far more gangue and sensationalist.
  - pjc50 5y ago
    The problem with Israel being "a Jewish state" is that requires the suppression and occasionally ethnic cleansing of its non-Jewish residents in order to prevent them from ever achieving enough numbers or power to make it not Jewish. It's a fundamental contradiction embedded from the Israeli declaration of independence (which commits to racial and religious equality) onwards: what does it mean for a state, rather than individuals, to be Jewish? The underlying argument is that it's necessary for the continued survival and security of Jewish people that there be a Jewish state, and unfortunately the continuous attacks on Israel suggest they might be right.
  - gghhzzgghhzz 5y ago
    I think you can point out that any state founded on ethno or religious grounds is a bad idea. Although in this case given when it was formed and why that clearly adds a lot of context. You can certainly state that the right of self-determination doesn't trump the rights of others. So a Jewish state somewhere is a right, but not if there are already people living in that particular somewhere who object. You can also state that predominantly European migration to a part of the world where there are other people living has been somewhere between a mistake and a disaster and a tragedy, be that America, Australia or Israel. I think the last part is the issue that causes much of the problems. Many people in Labour party wanted to protect the right of those directly affected by the migration to call it out in their terms. We wouldn't deny native americans or aborigines using terms like 'racist' to describe what has happened to them. Yet the misuse of the IHRA examples (turning examples into a legal definition) did exactly that. And many people in Labour objected. I can understand the continuing need for there to always be a place of safety for Jews. Although it's tragic that this is the case, but understandable, not least given the holocaust still being within living memory. The current direction of Israel can't be it though, there has to be some other way.
DSingularity 5y ago
What a weak argument — but let’s humor this idiocy. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you are saying that smear campaigns are built exclusively on “solid truth”? So you think it is impossible for anyone to organize a smear campaign based on lies and/or misrepresentation? Seems naive to me. I wonder, are you just trying to add to the “labor is anti-Semitic” smears that Zionists push online? You know the smears they push because they have no answer to the criticism that zionist Israelis are (a) stealing other peoples lands through settlements (b) supporting racist Apartheid laws and (c) supporting a criminal state which regularly oppresses and violates the universally-acknowledged rights of the native population.
- JoBrad 5y ago
  I took their meaning to be that successful disinformation includes enough truth to provide some level of plausibility. That doesn’t mean that truth is at the core of the smear, or even that it’s a “whole” truth. Epstein had many rich and powerful friends. Epstein was a pedophile. Epstein died within an inexcusable lapse in custody. These are all truths. Combine them together into the Q narrative, and now you have a massive conspiracy that is mostly wild speculation but contains some kernels of truth.
eutectic 5y ago
You mean a smear campaign like the blood libel?
coldtea 5y ago
>Face it, Corbyn and the Labour Party do have a massive issue with antisemitism Only if we define it as criticism of Israeli policy. Otherwise, that's a smear, substituting criticism with antisemitism. >A smear campaign can only be really effective if there is a solid truth behind it. Nope, it can be very effective without any truth. Try smearing someone as a pedophile - you think they'll be able to wash it off? Goebbels, for one, advised for complete lies, repeated often. In fact, a complete huge lie can be even more believable, as people go "would they said something that great, if it wasn't at least a bit true?".
- Ntrails 5y ago
  > Only if we define it as criticism of Israeli policy. Which appears to basically be the criteria these days - which is terrifying.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sofixa 5y ago
Some left-leaning organisations across Europe supporting Palestine is not antisemitism, regardless of what nationalistic Israelis might say. Is there any proof whatsoever for those claims or is it like the Labour party "scandals" that are taken out of proportion as a part of a smear campaign? For instance in France there are multiple left parties, and none of them are antisemitic in any real sense of the word.
- willmw101 5y ago
  https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/french-presidential-candidate-jewish-school-murders-part-of-conspiracy-670481 https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/french-president... >Jean-Luc Melenchon, a far-left politician running for France's presidency next year has suggested that a jihadist's 2012 murder of Jews was part of an elections conspiracy.
cloutchaser 5y ago
I can't believe you've been downvoted to oblivion. Labour party antisemitism goes way beyond criticism of isreal, including support for hezbollah and hamas. https://labourhatesjews.wordpress.com/2017/06/05/29-examples-of-labour-anti-semitism/ https://labourhatesjews.wordpress.com/2017/06/05/29-examples... Also: Jeremy Corbyn faces fury after praising ‘brilliant’ book which claims Jews control world banks https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8975188/jeremy-corbyn-praises-jews-control-banks-book/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8975188/jeremy-corbyn-praises-... Corbyn also backed the artist behind the mural clearly depicting evil jews controlling the world like a board game: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/23/corbyn-criticised-after-backing-artist-behind-antisemitic-mural https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/23/corbyn-crit... The excusing away of this behaviour on HN is crazy, it's not just about isreal. Not by a long shot.
- gghhzzgghhzz 5y ago
  These are again examples without context. e.g. on Hobson's book. This was a book that was widely referenced. Certainly referencing it didn't mean endorsement of Hobson's antisemitism ( a few lines in that book).. like praising the works of many other authors of the time that contain antisemetic references. Here's the then leader of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg citing Hobson. http://www.demos.co.uk/files/Liberal_moment_-_EMBARGOED_18.09.09.pdf http://www.demos.co.uk/files/Liberal_moment_-_EMBARGOED_18.0... Or Blair: "J.A Hobson was probably the most famour Liberal convert to what was the literally 'new Labour'" or Gordon Brown "In Britain, this idea of liberty as empowerment is not a new idea, J A Hobson asked, “is a man free who has not equal opportunity with his fellows of such access to all material and moral means of personal development and work as shall contribute to his own welfare and that of his society?”" Is the same for all other cases. This is how smearing works. People take something that happened (that cannot be denied) and then insist this is proof. If the person says nothing they seem guilty, if the person tries to explain and put things into context they seem guilty.
  - cloutchaser 5y ago
    Ok, how about the others?
mxmilkiib 5y ago
Afaiu, the solid truth was that higher-up admin people of the Parliamentary Labour Party HQ, which is separate from the office of the Leader Of The Opposition, failed to do the investigating, partly due to the fear and hate of Corbyn in the PLP, but then LOTO took the blame (partly cos Corbyn isn't the greatest of communicators). Novara did various detailed videos on the whole saga, including looking at the PLP WhatsApp leaks. https://youtu.be/G02ZZY_KE4E https://youtu.be/G02ZZY_KE4E https://youtu.be/ZjNB7fGc1-A https://youtu.be/ZjNB7fGc1-A etc

simonh 5y ago

Every British government has been an ally of Israel. You don't turn down a relationship with a country with Israel's military, technical and intelligence capabilities, and worth $5bn in bilateral trade for nothing if you have any sense.

youngtaff 5y ago
We did with Europe and the trade is worth way more than $5bn
- simonh 5y ago
  And we're allies with the EU to this day. What's your point?
  - youngtaff 5y ago
    We threw away billions in trade with the EU over not really that much, why would not throw away a far smaller sum when it comes to another country that was spying on us? How much the UK and EU are allies remains to be seen too
caoilte 5y ago
UK bilateral trade with Russia was ~$17 billion in 2021 (i assume that's imports plus exports right?). Russia was a very close friend twenty years ago, Iraq was a very close ally in the 1980s. I'm sure Israel realises how quickly the west can turn on friends and allies when it suits us and that this is why they spend tens of millions a year wooing US and UK politicians. Russia became a pariah over night and the moment it becomes politically convenient to diplomatically recognise Israel as an apartheid state the trade won't count for anything (not least because most of it is the direct consequence of billions in annual US subsidies)
- simonh 5y ago
  Russia's been a pain in the arse continuously. 20 years ago they were up to their eyeballs in the Iranian nuclear programme, carpet bombing Chechnya, blowing up their own apartment blocks and blaming it on terrorists, destabilising Georgia and goodness knows what else. That's all just from memory. But they have a lot of oil and gas so we let it all slide. More fool us.