7 ms·

This argument is always really odd to me. You'll hear people say things like "if evolution is real then why are there still monkeys?" As if anyone is claiming

by warent 5y ago

This argument is always really odd to me. You'll hear people say things like "if evolution is real then why are there still monkeys?" As if anyone is claiming we're derived from modern chimps... Meanwhile the ancient apes that we share as common ancestors with modern apes are long extinct. Not to mention evolution doesn't require an extinction as far as I know. See polar bears

simonh 5y ago
Also even the population of brown bears that polar bears are descended from didn't go extinct either. They're still here, they're just polar bears.
- adolph 4y ago
  "The population of brown bears that polar bears are descended from" are presumably dead, right? The current population of brown bears are likewise descended from the same population of brown bears.
neuronic 4y ago
It doesn't seem far off to me to interpret evolution as meaning that specific lineages didn't go extinct. The common ancestor between us and bonobos, chimps, gorillas, orangs is still around. They're just bonobos, chimps, gorillas and orangs and humans nowadays because some populations simply matched their environments over a (long) time and became more fit in their niche. The question what constitutes a species, for sake of our classification desires, is also very relevant to this. Populations separating and changing until offspring isn't viable? Why do some of us have Neanderthal genes?
- technothrasher 4y ago
  > Populations separating and changing until offspring isn't viable? Generally, but then you have things like multiple canids being different species but able to produce viable hybrids (e.g. the large number of coywolves we have near me). Since "species" is a classification we made up which doesn't map to reality particularly well, it gets pretty fuzzy at the edges.
jalk 4y ago
"if evolution is real then why are there still monkeys?": For the same reason there are different species of mammals < vertebrates < animals
- musicale 4y ago
  Monkeys are on the decline since clever and mostly hairless apes took over. The latter might be too clever for their own good however, having invented carbon-fueled industry, super-powered AI, and various hyper-destructive weapons. Also Twitter. And NFTs.
yakubin 4y ago
> You'll hear people say things like "if evolution is real then why are there still monkeys?" The only person I've ever met in my life who did not believe in evolution was a catholic priest. It's honestly bewildering to me that evolutionary sceptics are common enough to warrant a note in mainstream media or even just normal conversation. To me it's comparable to finding out there are still geocentrism apologists. Although from what I've read it's more common in US. I'm in Europe so that may be the source of my bubble.
- smaudet 4y ago
  It's kind of strange to say but if anything Creationists believe in a hyper evolution - for starters there is a complimentary geological theory which holds that most changes are catastrophic e.g. canyons, islands are the result of wildly destructive volcanos, primordial floods (think massive post iceage lakes breaking through a mountainside, or extreme and constant hurricanes and tidal waves). As for evolution, the Christians literally believe man was made whole, along with every other living thing - a more sci-fi explanation would be massive viral and bacterial mutation, like a lichen growing legs and arms (bacteria and viruses both evolve at breathtaking speeds, so it is possible if unlikely). Creationists do actually acknowledge evolution, they usually downplay its significance or spend a lot of time pointing the current scientific inconsistencies in mainstream evolutionary theories. I think they are both a bit wrong - obviously Creationism is wildly optimistic about both an all powerful entity who creates things then mysteriously vanishes, never to be heard from again (discounting the delusions or child-exploitation of near death "I met god" accounts). There is a wide amount of expression our genes already afford us - it only takes a couple generations for most animals or plants to express very different visible traits. Couple that with invasive viral infections permanently mutating the gonad materials (eggs, sperm, spores) and wild environmental fluctuations (meteors hitting the ocean), you could experience evolutionary forces in a very short time frame. I don't know that you require billions or trillions of years in the margins of carbon dating. Ignoring questions of whether the astrophysicists have it right with the age of the known universe (is the big bang truly the beginning of the universe or just an event in a multidimensional cosmos?), a middle ground where the evolutionists and Christians are both wrong seems more plausible to me - hominids have been around for a very, very long time, perhaps even coexisting hundreds or billions of years ago with dinosaurs. We just happen to exist post some set of climactic events, cutting us off from our history. I should clarify - I am not pro Creationism, I used to appreciate having been taught a different theory, however apologist doesn't make for good science, especially when the mainstream theories have the easy out of calling anything else "Christian nonsense". E.g. in physics there is the standard model, and various competing alternative models, crucially there are no major appeals to authority and so competing theories can thrive. Evolution is almost political on the other hand, much the same as climate science. I guess we had Christian physics, we called that witchcraft. Ironically, with some of the immoral things modern tech has enabled, perhaps the claims of beezlebub in your tech weren't off the mark wholly. They are plenty of angels in tech though too...

by warent 5y ago

simonh 5y ago

Also even the population of brown bears that polar bears are descended from didn't go extinct either. They're still here, they're just polar bears.

adolph 4y ago
"The population of brown bears that polar bears are descended from" are presumably dead, right? The current population of brown bears are likewise descended from the same population of brown bears.

neuronic 4y ago

It doesn't seem far off to me to interpret evolution as meaning that specific lineages didn't go extinct. The common ancestor between us and bonobos, chimps, gorillas, orangs is still around. They're just bonobos, chimps, gorillas and orangs and humans nowadays because some populations simply matched their environments over a (long) time and became more fit in their niche. The question what constitutes a species, for sake of our classification desires, is also very relevant to this. Populations separating and changing until offspring isn't viable? Why do some of us have Neanderthal genes?

technothrasher 4y ago
> Populations separating and changing until offspring isn't viable? Generally, but then you have things like multiple canids being different species but able to produce viable hybrids (e.g. the large number of coywolves we have near me). Since "species" is a classification we made up which doesn't map to reality particularly well, it gets pretty fuzzy at the edges.

jalk 4y ago

"if evolution is real then why are there still monkeys?": For the same reason there are different species of mammals < vertebrates < animals

musicale 4y ago
Monkeys are on the decline since clever and mostly hairless apes took over. The latter might be too clever for their own good however, having invented carbon-fueled industry, super-powered AI, and various hyper-destructive weapons. Also Twitter. And NFTs.

yakubin 4y ago

> You'll hear people say things like "if evolution is real then why are there still monkeys?" The only person I've ever met in my life who did not believe in evolution was a catholic priest. It's honestly bewildering to me that evolutionary sceptics are common enough to warrant a note in mainstream media or even just normal conversation. To me it's comparable to finding out there are still geocentrism apologists. Although from what I've read it's more common in US. I'm in Europe so that may be the source of my bubble.

smaudet 4y ago
It's kind of strange to say but if anything Creationists believe in a hyper evolution - for starters there is a complimentary geological theory which holds that most changes are catastrophic e.g. canyons, islands are the result of wildly destructive volcanos, primordial floods (think massive post iceage lakes breaking through a mountainside, or extreme and constant hurricanes and tidal waves). As for evolution, the Christians literally believe man was made whole, along with every other living thing - a more sci-fi explanation would be massive viral and bacterial mutation, like a lichen growing legs and arms (bacteria and viruses both evolve at breathtaking speeds, so it is possible if unlikely). Creationists do actually acknowledge evolution, they usually downplay its significance or spend a lot of time pointing the current scientific inconsistencies in mainstream evolutionary theories. I think they are both a bit wrong - obviously Creationism is wildly optimistic about both an all powerful entity who creates things then mysteriously vanishes, never to be heard from again (discounting the delusions or child-exploitation of near death "I met god" accounts). There is a wide amount of expression our genes already afford us - it only takes a couple generations for most animals or plants to express very different visible traits. Couple that with invasive viral infections permanently mutating the gonad materials (eggs, sperm, spores) and wild environmental fluctuations (meteors hitting the ocean), you could experience evolutionary forces in a very short time frame. I don't know that you require billions or trillions of years in the margins of carbon dating. Ignoring questions of whether the astrophysicists have it right with the age of the known universe (is the big bang truly the beginning of the universe or just an event in a multidimensional cosmos?), a middle ground where the evolutionists and Christians are both wrong seems more plausible to me - hominids have been around for a very, very long time, perhaps even coexisting hundreds or billions of years ago with dinosaurs. We just happen to exist post some set of climactic events, cutting us off from our history. I should clarify - I am not pro Creationism, I used to appreciate having been taught a different theory, however apologist doesn't make for good science, especially when the mainstream theories have the easy out of calling anything else "Christian nonsense". E.g. in physics there is the standard model, and various competing alternative models, crucially there are no major appeals to authority and so competing theories can thrive. Evolution is almost political on the other hand, much the same as climate science. I guess we had Christian physics, we called that witchcraft. Ironically, with some of the immoral things modern tech has enabled, perhaps the claims of beezlebub in your tech weren't off the mark wholly. They are plenty of angels in tech though too...