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As a Windows/MacOS user who has moved full time to linux, I ended up on Debian Testing as my daily (going to try Fedora soon). I still live back in the days wh

As a Windows/MacOS user who has moved full time to linux, I ended up on Debian Testing as my daily (going to try Fedora soon). I still live back in the days when Fedora would give you a pop up to install non-free drivers ("additional software" or something like that). I have been using Debian as my daily driver for almost 6 months now and Linux in general for years - I still have no idea how the video drivers work. I have no idea how to install them, which ones mean what, what's free, non-free, optimal, professional - I have no idea how any of it works and it's a source of frustration for me. What is mesa? Why do people tell me not to install the video drivers from the Radeon website. When I download and install the drivers from the Radeon website there are lots of errors but it still seems to work - did I install them wrong? How to I update them? When I install the `apt install firmware-amd-graphics` I get loads of warning, but it works so I ignore them. What is going on and why isn't it as simple as Window's where I run an executable and a setup wizard does the rest?

diffeomorphism 5y ago
> still have no idea how the video drivers work. Why would you want to? This is not something I want to actually have to care about. And also I absolutely don't have to. > What is going on and why isn't it as simple as Window's where I run an executable and a setup wizard does the rest? Do you mean the included drivers? Or the OEM ones? Or the Nvidia ones? Current or beta? Also, it is even simpler than that on distros that support nonfree stuff, e.g. on ubuntu it is just click here for which nvidia stuff you want and done. As opposed to navigate websites, versions and wizards in windows.
johnny22 5y ago
mesa is the thing that handles opengl and vulkan for most cards that aren't nvidia. Generally you don't have to touch video drivers at all in linux except for arm stuff and nvidia. (that's not always the case,but mostly) Just keep your kernel up to date. That's the main problem with debian and wanting to say play games or have newer hardware.
Cu3PO42 5y ago
The driver situation for modern AMD GPUs is pretty good. There is an open-source `amdgpu` driver in the mainline Linux kernel maintained by AMD themselves. If you use a somewhat recent kernel, that'll be there. You need `mesa` in userspace which provides the OpenGL interface, etc. to your applications. This is why there's no need to install anything from the Radeon website -- you already have a driver. As for the `firmware-amd-graphics` package, it provides proprietary firmware for your GPU. That could be as insignificant as microcode updates or an important part of the interface that the driver expects. It's probably a good idea to install (and maybe try and fix the warnings.)
- blihp 5y ago
  Unless you're running one of the handful of 'officially' supported distros/versions, it really isn't that good yet for at least 6000-series cards. Sure, the upstream video drivers work fine if you just need basic functionality. But if you need more advanced capabilities (i.e. monitoring/managing frequencies/power consumption/etc) or do GPU compute, you're pretty much stuck using the AMD repos which are built for LTS releases of enterprise distros. They can be made to work (with varying degrees of pain) for some releases of desktop distros but it is currently very far from painless.
  - slavik81 5y ago
    All the ROCm components beneath HIP are in Debian Unstable (aside from the firmware as per topic), and I think at least a few components made it into Ubuntu 22.04. Facilitating Debian packaging for ROCm has been my hobby for the past year or so. While ROCm doesn't officially support consumer GPUs, the supported W6800 is Navi 21. The consumer Navi 21 cards thus also work. Those are the 6800 / 6800 XT and 6900 XT. If any Debian contributors would like to help package the rest of the ROCm stack, the Debian AI mailing list is where most of the action happens. Disclosure: I work for AMD on ROCm, but all opinions are my own.
    - blihp 5y ago
      A big 'thank you' to you and the others working on this as it is badly needed! I've been following the progress of this work and I'm looking forward to the day when it makes it into testing. Unstable lives up to its name too often for my needs[1]. Unfortunately, my hobby project dance card is full right now or I'd probably try to pitch in. Now a bit of cold water for real world use cases currently... The bulk of the market is on 6700 XT and lower so ROCm is currently effectively saying 'we don't support the vast majority of our shipped cards for compute'[2] which sends a bad message to the consumer/prosumer market. Also, I do hope AMD reconsiders the requirement for PCIe 3.0 atomics support for compute as it seriously limits the utility of its cards in the consumer space.[3] It limits the compute support for most systems to a single slot (i.e. the processor direct PCIe connection) which will result in a 'no-sale' for many people.[4] I recently upgraded to a B550 system and imagine my surprise when I found out the chipset doesn't support it, but the compute drivers require it, so only one AMD card for me... this pushes me back to nVidia, or possibly Intel if they ever ship, for most of my compute needs for foreseeable future. I don't write this to discourage you as it would be great to see AMD be successful on Linux. However, I think it's important for AMD folks to hear real world feedback on the current situation and understand you've got a long ways to go still: I'm on a full AMD system and my experience has been that it (GPU support) is far from ready for prime time so it probably won't be a full AMD system for much longer. [1] Where key packages can disappear for months at a time and serious breakage can and does occur. I understand the need for this in unstable which is why I steer clear of it for my daily driver. [2] Saying 'well just get a 6800 or better' isn't realistic given availability and pricing of the higher end cards to date. I had planned on getting a 6800 [XT] but was not willing to pay the markups due to scalpers/AIB markups. Even the AMD weekly drops didn't help on these cards. So I settled on a 6700 XT until prices return to a more sane level. [3] I tried to raise this issue on the AMD forums but my message got marked as spam. <sigh> [4] Multi-GPU setups for compute are not uncommon on consumer hardware, especially rendering and ML.
happymellon 5y ago
> What is mesa? It is the OpenGL and Vulkan libraries. Code calls the Vulkan API, and mesa translates that into something the video driver can handle, which in turn passes the command to the video card. > Why do people tell me not to install the video drivers from the Radeon website. Because AMD have spent a lot of time and effort getting the drivers in the kernel, and the website drivers are old and no longer the best. There is "AMDGPU Pro" video drivers, which gives you the AMD OpenGL/Vulkan libraries, but they are generally not as good as Mesa as Mesa has everyone working on it. > How to I update them? AMD have spent a lot of time getting them in the kernel. You update by getting the latest version of Debian, or switching to a distribution that uses a newer kernel. > What is going on and why isn't it as simple as Window's where I run an executable and a setup wizard does the rest? It is a lot more simple. It is all built in. This is the beauty of collaborative development, AMD and Intel get improvements based upon each others work and they concentrate on giving us better hardware. This is also the reason that AMD works so much better on Linux than Windows, and generally AMD gives Nvidia a run for its money on Linux, at least according to the last benchmarks I saw.
- apatheticonion 5y ago
  This is great context, this only threw me because when I installed Debian and some other distros, I didn't have any graphics card drivers and was confused why and how to get them. > Because AMD have spent a lot of time and effort getting the drivers in the kernel Does that mean the drivers are open source? > It is a lot more simple. It is all built in. When it works. When you have no context (like me) and you are presented with the wrong resolution and no GPU acceleration - It's really hard to find a tl;dr of how to get your graphics card working. Your comment was literally more valuable than a few hours on the internet trying to disambiguate the situation.
  - cesarb 5y ago
    > Does that mean the drivers are open source? Yes, they are. Of the big three (Intel, AMD, Nvidia), only the Nvidia drivers aren't open source (there's an open source driver for Nvidia, called "nouveau", but it doesn't come from the manufacturer and isn't that good).
blihp 5y ago
Setting aside the ideological arguments, the primary reason you should not be installing video drivers, or any other device drivers, outside of what your distro has packaged (if you can help it) is that they have an annoying tendency to break when you do a version upgrade leaving you with, if you're lucky, only the ability to log in via the command line or ssh. Worst case, you can end up with an entirely hosed install. Even if they work (for now), keeping them in sync with the rest of your system can be an exercise in frustration. As someone who is currently dealing with proprietary AMD drivers (and previously proprietary nVidia drivers) on Debian testing, it's pretty much only a matter of time before things will break... you've been warned but I understand if you need to do it anyways (as I do for compute support with AMD currently.) I'm very much looking forward to the day when we have Debian packages (at least in the non-free repo) for current AMD GPU compute stuff.

diffeomorphism 5y ago

> still have no idea how the video drivers work. Why would you want to? This is not something I want to actually have to care about. And also I absolutely don't have to. > What is going on and why isn't it as simple as Window's where I run an executable and a setup wizard does the rest? Do you mean the included drivers? Or the OEM ones? Or the Nvidia ones? Current or beta? Also, it is even simpler than that on distros that support nonfree stuff, e.g. on ubuntu it is just click here for which nvidia stuff you want and done. As opposed to navigate websites, versions and wizards in windows.

johnny22 5y ago

mesa is the thing that handles opengl and vulkan for most cards that aren't nvidia. Generally you don't have to touch video drivers at all in linux except for arm stuff and nvidia. (that's not always the case,but mostly) Just keep your kernel up to date. That's the main problem with debian and wanting to say play games or have newer hardware.

Cu3PO42 5y ago

The driver situation for modern AMD GPUs is pretty good. There is an open-source `amdgpu` driver in the mainline Linux kernel maintained by AMD themselves. If you use a somewhat recent kernel, that'll be there. You need `mesa` in userspace which provides the OpenGL interface, etc. to your applications. This is why there's no need to install anything from the Radeon website -- you already have a driver. As for the `firmware-amd-graphics` package, it provides proprietary firmware for your GPU. That could be as insignificant as microcode updates or an important part of the interface that the driver expects. It's probably a good idea to install (and maybe try and fix the warnings.)

blihp 5y ago
Unless you're running one of the handful of 'officially' supported distros/versions, it really isn't that good yet for at least 6000-series cards. Sure, the upstream video drivers work fine if you just need basic functionality. But if you need more advanced capabilities (i.e. monitoring/managing frequencies/power consumption/etc) or do GPU compute, you're pretty much stuck using the AMD repos which are built for LTS releases of enterprise distros. They can be made to work (with varying degrees of pain) for some releases of desktop distros but it is currently very far from painless.
- slavik81 5y ago
  All the ROCm components beneath HIP are in Debian Unstable (aside from the firmware as per topic), and I think at least a few components made it into Ubuntu 22.04. Facilitating Debian packaging for ROCm has been my hobby for the past year or so. While ROCm doesn't officially support consumer GPUs, the supported W6800 is Navi 21. The consumer Navi 21 cards thus also work. Those are the 6800 / 6800 XT and 6900 XT. If any Debian contributors would like to help package the rest of the ROCm stack, the Debian AI mailing list is where most of the action happens. Disclosure: I work for AMD on ROCm, but all opinions are my own.
  - blihp 5y ago
    A big 'thank you' to you and the others working on this as it is badly needed! I've been following the progress of this work and I'm looking forward to the day when it makes it into testing. Unstable lives up to its name too often for my needs[1]. Unfortunately, my hobby project dance card is full right now or I'd probably try to pitch in. Now a bit of cold water for real world use cases currently... The bulk of the market is on 6700 XT and lower so ROCm is currently effectively saying 'we don't support the vast majority of our shipped cards for compute'[2] which sends a bad message to the consumer/prosumer market. Also, I do hope AMD reconsiders the requirement for PCIe 3.0 atomics support for compute as it seriously limits the utility of its cards in the consumer space.[3] It limits the compute support for most systems to a single slot (i.e. the processor direct PCIe connection) which will result in a 'no-sale' for many people.[4] I recently upgraded to a B550 system and imagine my surprise when I found out the chipset doesn't support it, but the compute drivers require it, so only one AMD card for me... this pushes me back to nVidia, or possibly Intel if they ever ship, for most of my compute needs for foreseeable future. I don't write this to discourage you as it would be great to see AMD be successful on Linux. However, I think it's important for AMD folks to hear real world feedback on the current situation and understand you've got a long ways to go still: I'm on a full AMD system and my experience has been that it (GPU support) is far from ready for prime time so it probably won't be a full AMD system for much longer. [1] Where key packages can disappear for months at a time and serious breakage can and does occur. I understand the need for this in unstable which is why I steer clear of it for my daily driver. [2] Saying 'well just get a 6800 or better' isn't realistic given availability and pricing of the higher end cards to date. I had planned on getting a 6800 [XT] but was not willing to pay the markups due to scalpers/AIB markups. Even the AMD weekly drops didn't help on these cards. So I settled on a 6700 XT until prices return to a more sane level. [3] I tried to raise this issue on the AMD forums but my message got marked as spam. <sigh> [4] Multi-GPU setups for compute are not uncommon on consumer hardware, especially rendering and ML.

happymellon 5y ago

> What is mesa? It is the OpenGL and Vulkan libraries. Code calls the Vulkan API, and mesa translates that into something the video driver can handle, which in turn passes the command to the video card. > Why do people tell me not to install the video drivers from the Radeon website. Because AMD have spent a lot of time and effort getting the drivers in the kernel, and the website drivers are old and no longer the best. There is "AMDGPU Pro" video drivers, which gives you the AMD OpenGL/Vulkan libraries, but they are generally not as good as Mesa as Mesa has everyone working on it. > How to I update them? AMD have spent a lot of time getting them in the kernel. You update by getting the latest version of Debian, or switching to a distribution that uses a newer kernel. > What is going on and why isn't it as simple as Window's where I run an executable and a setup wizard does the rest? It is a lot more simple. It is all built in. This is the beauty of collaborative development, AMD and Intel get improvements based upon each others work and they concentrate on giving us better hardware. This is also the reason that AMD works so much better on Linux than Windows, and generally AMD gives Nvidia a run for its money on Linux, at least according to the last benchmarks I saw.

apatheticonion 5y ago
This is great context, this only threw me because when I installed Debian and some other distros, I didn't have any graphics card drivers and was confused why and how to get them. > Because AMD have spent a lot of time and effort getting the drivers in the kernel Does that mean the drivers are open source? > It is a lot more simple. It is all built in. When it works. When you have no context (like me) and you are presented with the wrong resolution and no GPU acceleration - It's really hard to find a tl;dr of how to get your graphics card working. Your comment was literally more valuable than a few hours on the internet trying to disambiguate the situation.
- cesarb 5y ago
  > Does that mean the drivers are open source? Yes, they are. Of the big three (Intel, AMD, Nvidia), only the Nvidia drivers aren't open source (there's an open source driver for Nvidia, called "nouveau", but it doesn't come from the manufacturer and isn't that good).

blihp 5y ago

Setting aside the ideological arguments, the primary reason you should not be installing video drivers, or any other device drivers, outside of what your distro has packaged (if you can help it) is that they have an annoying tendency to break when you do a version upgrade leaving you with, if you're lucky, only the ability to log in via the command line or ssh. Worst case, you can end up with an entirely hosed install. Even if they work (for now), keeping them in sync with the rest of your system can be an exercise in frustration. As someone who is currently dealing with proprietary AMD drivers (and previously proprietary nVidia drivers) on Debian testing, it's pretty much only a matter of time before things will break... you've been warned but I understand if you need to do it anyways (as I do for compute support with AMD currently.) I'm very much looking forward to the day when we have Debian packages (at least in the non-free repo) for current AMD GPU compute stuff.