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In the case of Mao and Stalin? That would be the idol of Ideological purity. It is presented as the one true ideal variant of humanistic utilitarianism, and con

In the case of Mao and Stalin? That would be the idol of Ideological purity. It is presented as the one true ideal variant of humanistic utilitarianism, and conveniently because they are the glorious leader through whom it is to be enacted, they are basically the prophet of this god. It is an impersonal god, a "force" or natural economic/social principle whose pseudo-personhood emerges from collective humanity. It uses its adherents to oppress outsiders for resisting. It holds itself together by using its adherents to watch and keep each other in line. It callously punishes insiders to demonstrate that this god doesn't need any of the individual humans it supposedly serves, since they are so much like animals in the first place. Materialist don't get to make a smug escape from the stigma of "killing in the name of god". Anything you place at the top of your value hierarchy is, for all intents and purposes, your god. It's a little on the cheesy side but I think this clip from They Live illustrates simply the idolatrous place capital can take in our day-to-day lives. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8WttFoF3Og https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8WttFoF3Og

nautilius 4y ago
That's it? That's all your god has to offer? That's all your god is? An ideology? Bureaucrats and formalism? I feel betrayed! To you, god is indistinguishable for from this? How? Now, I am not a religion-apologist, but it seems to me you're selling god short, no? What about all the metaphysical mumbo-jumbo? Here's Oxford: 1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being. 2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity. Wow! Yeah! Thats's a god! But you're arguing that god is equivalent to formalism and bureaucracy?! Wow, what a disappointment!
- JetAlone 4y ago
  I wasn't saying that's what God is. I was saying that is what a person can try to make a god out of. I agree that bureaucracy and formalism makes for a disappointing god. That's the way the pharisees tended towards practicing.
  - nautilius 4y ago
    See, and that's where you're a dishonest hypocrite (ah, you got me there!) while moving your goalposts by miles. The religious people are all innocent, because those who aren't, aren't true believers and pharisees; but wow does that threshold drop when it comes to atheists (or 'smug materialists'), because now everything is their true god, and they just haven't realized that they really are religious, and are "just as bad as the religious people" (TM) because nothing can exist outside of religion, hallelujah. You claim you were an atheist once, for a decade? Maybe you mistook being an atheist for being 'edgy' and smug. All it means is that I don't believe in you sky daddy. Never in my life have I talked about atheism except in response to religious people bringing up their religion and trying to explain to me how really I am religious. I just want to be left alone from your superstition, freedom from religion is the only religious freedom.
    - TimTheTinker 4y ago
      What you call "moving the goalposts" here was just OP's starting assumption that everyone is religious in some way (Bob Dylan's "gotta serve somebody" comes to mind) -- an assumption which you disagree with. It would make for better discussion to call out this assumption and offer arguments against it than to resort to personal attacks.
      - JetAlone 4y ago
        The personal attacks aren't a resort for people like this. It's the thing they advance into these threads to do in the first place. This is the person who said "Freedom from religion is the only religious freedom", which is something I would expect to hear from a guard at a prison camp whose job is to systematically destroy an inmate's hope, community and individuality outside of basic material desires. Freedom of religion is freedom to believe or not to believe in any religion or philosophy a person may choose. It is the freedom to express that privately or together, to speak about or practice it openly. It is the freedom to seek meaning, in spite of how you may be looked upon for the journey or its outcome. Without this definition of freedom of religion in place, there can only be the state religion/philosophy and any of the people belonging to systems of belief that the state's adherents subjugate, subvert, or chooses to tolerate for the time being. Furthermore, it's not a freedom that can just be taken away, even if someone writes a mean comment about it or codifies a law that criminalizes beliefs. It is a freedom embedded in base reality. I am grateful that I grew up in a world where so many people around me valued this definition of freedom of religion so much. I am grateful for the meanings, symbolism and relationships I have been able to discover on this path. Being a former atheist allows me to cherish them all the more, because I remember what life was like without them. May God have mercy on everyone in this thread, we are all going to need it. I resolutely believe we are in these sad political times because we have forgotten about God.

nautilius 4y ago

That's it? That's all your god has to offer? That's all your god is? An ideology? Bureaucrats and formalism? I feel betrayed! To you, god is indistinguishable for from this? How? Now, I am not a religion-apologist, but it seems to me you're selling god short, no? What about all the metaphysical mumbo-jumbo? Here's Oxford: 1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being. 2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity. Wow! Yeah! Thats's a god! But you're arguing that god is equivalent to formalism and bureaucracy?! Wow, what a disappointment!

JetAlone 4y ago
I wasn't saying that's what God is. I was saying that is what a person can try to make a god out of. I agree that bureaucracy and formalism makes for a disappointing god. That's the way the pharisees tended towards practicing.
- nautilius 4y ago
  See, and that's where you're a dishonest hypocrite (ah, you got me there!) while moving your goalposts by miles. The religious people are all innocent, because those who aren't, aren't true believers and pharisees; but wow does that threshold drop when it comes to atheists (or 'smug materialists'), because now everything is their true god, and they just haven't realized that they really are religious, and are "just as bad as the religious people" (TM) because nothing can exist outside of religion, hallelujah. You claim you were an atheist once, for a decade? Maybe you mistook being an atheist for being 'edgy' and smug. All it means is that I don't believe in you sky daddy. Never in my life have I talked about atheism except in response to religious people bringing up their religion and trying to explain to me how really I am religious. I just want to be left alone from your superstition, freedom from religion is the only religious freedom.
  - TimTheTinker 4y ago
    What you call "moving the goalposts" here was just OP's starting assumption that everyone is religious in some way (Bob Dylan's "gotta serve somebody" comes to mind) -- an assumption which you disagree with. It would make for better discussion to call out this assumption and offer arguments against it than to resort to personal attacks.
    - JetAlone 4y ago
      The personal attacks aren't a resort for people like this. It's the thing they advance into these threads to do in the first place. This is the person who said "Freedom from religion is the only religious freedom", which is something I would expect to hear from a guard at a prison camp whose job is to systematically destroy an inmate's hope, community and individuality outside of basic material desires. Freedom of religion is freedom to believe or not to believe in any religion or philosophy a person may choose. It is the freedom to express that privately or together, to speak about or practice it openly. It is the freedom to seek meaning, in spite of how you may be looked upon for the journey or its outcome. Without this definition of freedom of religion in place, there can only be the state religion/philosophy and any of the people belonging to systems of belief that the state's adherents subjugate, subvert, or chooses to tolerate for the time being. Furthermore, it's not a freedom that can just be taken away, even if someone writes a mean comment about it or codifies a law that criminalizes beliefs. It is a freedom embedded in base reality. I am grateful that I grew up in a world where so many people around me valued this definition of freedom of religion so much. I am grateful for the meanings, symbolism and relationships I have been able to discover on this path. Being a former atheist allows me to cherish them all the more, because I remember what life was like without them. May God have mercy on everyone in this thread, we are all going to need it. I resolutely believe we are in these sad political times because we have forgotten about God.