6 ms·

I had an Android. Every update made Termux less and less capable (IIRC exec is very complex or impossible in a recent one.) Now I have a Pinephone running a nor

by usrn 5y ago

I had an Android. Every update made Termux less and less capable (IIRC exec is very complex or impossible in a recent one.) Now I have a Pinephone running a normal X11 DE and I don't have to tolerate an ounce of stupidity. Sure there are legitimate good faith defects in the software but nothing is intentionally broken just for the sake of it. ssh just works (the phone shipped with it preinstalled) vim just works scp just works All my X11 apps just work All the scripts and little tools I've built up over the years just work (no fighting with namespaces when you switch to root or other weird Android nonsense.) All my dev tools just work (and you might say "well why would I ever want that on a phone? Because when you find a bug in the OS or an app and you're sitting on transit you can fix it right then and there. No making mental notes, no filling out issues, just slow continuous improvement. Something these mobile OSes will never have.) Desktop Firefox just works (even without touchscreen mode it's usable. With xinput2 enabled it has nice gesture support.) Want something to run in the background? Just open an Xterm window, run it, and minimize it. Want it to start on boot? Add it to the default runlevel or your X session just like you would on any other computer. There's absolutely no reason for any of the mobile nonsense (there arguably never was) other than money for the mobile OS vendors.

IanCal 5y ago
On the other hand, my android phone works reliably for ... I don't know weeks? Months? I only restart for major update. My Ubuntu laptop after a straight install didn't turn off properly, my Ubuntu desktop regularly has chrome crash and fails to wake up the screen. I've had so many issues with basic Linux setups that I absolutely do not want that on my phone. I don't want a browser that's described as just "usable". I don't want zoom that goes absolutely nuts or a webcam that loves to decide some ports aren't OK. My phone works. I open it and it works. I've never been in a position where trying to fix the underlying OS was required nor could I picture it being something worth time I'd have to trade away from my family.
- Agamus 5y ago
  I must be one of the lucky few. I've used Linux Mint as my main desktop for about 10 years now with zero problems. I've used LineageOS as my main phone OS for about 5 years now with zero problems. I run Windows for work and gaming, and run into issues regularly. Default Android/iPhone makes me a bit queasy.
- usrn 5y ago
  I actually don't share your experience. My Linux machines are all more reliable than the best smartphones I've had. Flagship Android phones have been the worst in my experience, most can't make it a week without crashing, not to mention the awful battery life. Maybe it's because I know to be picky about PC hardware and don't run things like Chrome. >I don't want a browser that's described as just "usable". I have to wonder what exactly you do want then, maybe a parade? I get it though. You don't want the responsibility of configuring your device. That's fine, most people don't. This next thing you said really gets me though: > I've never been in a position where trying to fix the underlying OS was required nor could I picture it being something worth time I'd have to trade away from my family. You've been conditioned to feel helpless here. You've been told you can't fix things so you accept that they're broken and don't think about it. That's one reaction and in this situation it's probably healthier. For me it's like living in a house with crooked picture frames and the police showing up if you try to straiten them. It's a little upsetting for people to act like that's reasonable or ok.
  - noirbot 5y ago
    I've been daily-drivering on Linux for Desktop and Laptop for months and Linux across 4 different distros has made me feel more helpless than Windows ever did. Sure, the Windows "police" would come in and straighten my update settings (which is ultimately why I abandoned Windows), but Linux you get the helplessness of sometimes having something break and the only answer you can find after spending half of your weekend searching for solutions is just "idk, give up and reset your entire OS" or "Yea, that bit of hardware just doesn't work with the Linux kernel and never will because some BDFL hates someone who worked at that company". I'm currently living with SO MANY "crooked picture frames" on all my devices that I've just given up on fixing after spending tens of hours on them and burning my free time on it. I still prefer Linux in general for a lot of the reasons you like it, but just doing basic "I want to install a program to take screenshots" has send me down hours of reading about how window compositing systems work, and why Snap is the devil even though everyone seems to be using it now. If I wasn't single and had better hobbies other than tinkering with config files, I'd have given up months ago.
    - 5y ago
- zeagle 5y ago
  I would agree with you (Pixel 6). I've found that any problem I have can be solved with something on f-droid / google play and by googling it. This isn't dissimilar to the experience in linux for my headless NAS or VPS to figure out how to run a new service or learning to use borg backup. Backup photos via SMB share every night if on local wifi/VPN'd home? Sync calendar, contacts with nextcloud via dav? Schedule a copy of my sandboxed work outlook calendar from Nine into a dav calendar so I can share it (read only) with family? Spit tunnel wireguard traffic? All these work without having to root and I'm not spending my evening trying to fix driver issues. I didn't spend an entire evening on these away from family. I'm not happy giving away the sum total of my experience on this planet to Google but this device just works and it works well. Some conveniences like Android Auto keep me from going to CalyxOS.
mardifoufs 5y ago
Maybe people do not want to use vim on their phones? This is like complaining that your laptop can't run mainframe applications. I guess if you are extremely attached to "your good old way" of doing things, sure, but that's such a limited way to judge platforms. It just amount to not wanting anything to change in your workflow... ever which is okay but not a very good reason to say that "there's no reason for any of the mobile stuff and there arguably never was" when the immense majority of people do not share the same habits.
- usrn 5y ago
  Sure but then you need a replacement that can do equivalent things (so for vim, notepad would be enough, but iOS doesn't even come with a text editor. You have notes but that only edits files in your mailbox. You can install an app but the app is stuck in its own sandbox etc.) I get the "you should be flexible" but being completely unable to do entire classes of tasks requires more than being flexible about your workflow. Most importantly: all these problems are entirely artificial. There's no actual limitation that creates them, just smartphone vendors declaring "things must be painful."
hiq 5y ago
> All the scripts and little tools I've built up over the years just work (no fighting with namespaces when you switch to root or other weird Android nonsense.) rm -rf / in one of those scripts also just works I assume; my point being that at least part of what you consider nonsense are real security improvements in Android with its permission model. I wish I could easily run Termux and access all everything by default without any restriction, but I also like that I've heard way less stories of viruses on Android than on Windows among my friends.
- usrn 5y ago
  >rm -rf / in one of those scripts also just works I assume In fact it doesn't, I have GNU rm installed. >I've heard way less stories of viruses on Android than on Windows among my friends. And how often do you here stories of viruses from Linux users? (outside the ones running Wordpress or NPM who carelessly fling executable code from strangers around.) Naive Linux users are protected from this problem but it's done in a very different way: Installing software that the distro maintainers haven't looked at requires a small amount of understanding and thought. They're discouraged from just grabbing executable from the web the way Android and Windows users do and so it's extremely rare that desktop Linux users experience malware (even if you use extremely broad definitions like RMS might. Often maintainers patch out things like telemetry or drop packages containing it altogether) Because of this the kinds of security measures Android has would mostly just get in the way. These tools are all there if you want them. SELinux can sandbox your app and prompt you for permissions. No one does this because it's just not necessary the way most people use typical GNU/Linux distros.
  - hiq 5y ago
    > And how often do you here stories of viruses from Linux users? How often do you hear stories of people switching from Windows to Linux? You and I are not relevant, the median user is, and the median user doesn't even understand your comment. The Android (and others) permission model is more than just an arbitrary constraint, it does bring real security benefits, and plain Linux is just not there yet. > SELinux can sandbox your app and prompt you for permissions. No one does this because it's just not necessary the way most people use typical GNU/Linux distros. No one (well, almost) does this because it's a pain and you're not even sure what you get out of it. Compare with the Android installation prompt where the permissions are explicitly spelled out before you click "install", and where the OS can meaningfully take them back eventually.
jotm 5y ago
Sounds pretty nice, actually. I don't have a phone that can run Linux, would love to try it.
woojoo666 5y ago
You use desktop firefox on a smartphone? Got any screenshots I'm very curious how usable that actually is

by usrn 5y ago

IanCal 5y ago

On the other hand, my android phone works reliably for ... I don't know weeks? Months? I only restart for major update. My Ubuntu laptop after a straight install didn't turn off properly, my Ubuntu desktop regularly has chrome crash and fails to wake up the screen. I've had so many issues with basic Linux setups that I absolutely do not want that on my phone. I don't want a browser that's described as just "usable". I don't want zoom that goes absolutely nuts or a webcam that loves to decide some ports aren't OK. My phone works. I open it and it works. I've never been in a position where trying to fix the underlying OS was required nor could I picture it being something worth time I'd have to trade away from my family.

Agamus 5y ago
I must be one of the lucky few. I've used Linux Mint as my main desktop for about 10 years now with zero problems. I've used LineageOS as my main phone OS for about 5 years now with zero problems. I run Windows for work and gaming, and run into issues regularly. Default Android/iPhone makes me a bit queasy.
usrn 5y ago
I actually don't share your experience. My Linux machines are all more reliable than the best smartphones I've had. Flagship Android phones have been the worst in my experience, most can't make it a week without crashing, not to mention the awful battery life. Maybe it's because I know to be picky about PC hardware and don't run things like Chrome. >I don't want a browser that's described as just "usable". I have to wonder what exactly you do want then, maybe a parade? I get it though. You don't want the responsibility of configuring your device. That's fine, most people don't. This next thing you said really gets me though: > I've never been in a position where trying to fix the underlying OS was required nor could I picture it being something worth time I'd have to trade away from my family. You've been conditioned to feel helpless here. You've been told you can't fix things so you accept that they're broken and don't think about it. That's one reaction and in this situation it's probably healthier. For me it's like living in a house with crooked picture frames and the police showing up if you try to straiten them. It's a little upsetting for people to act like that's reasonable or ok.
- noirbot 5y ago
  I've been daily-drivering on Linux for Desktop and Laptop for months and Linux across 4 different distros has made me feel more helpless than Windows ever did. Sure, the Windows "police" would come in and straighten my update settings (which is ultimately why I abandoned Windows), but Linux you get the helplessness of sometimes having something break and the only answer you can find after spending half of your weekend searching for solutions is just "idk, give up and reset your entire OS" or "Yea, that bit of hardware just doesn't work with the Linux kernel and never will because some BDFL hates someone who worked at that company". I'm currently living with SO MANY "crooked picture frames" on all my devices that I've just given up on fixing after spending tens of hours on them and burning my free time on it. I still prefer Linux in general for a lot of the reasons you like it, but just doing basic "I want to install a program to take screenshots" has send me down hours of reading about how window compositing systems work, and why Snap is the devil even though everyone seems to be using it now. If I wasn't single and had better hobbies other than tinkering with config files, I'd have given up months ago.
  - 5y ago
zeagle 5y ago
I would agree with you (Pixel 6). I've found that any problem I have can be solved with something on f-droid / google play and by googling it. This isn't dissimilar to the experience in linux for my headless NAS or VPS to figure out how to run a new service or learning to use borg backup. Backup photos via SMB share every night if on local wifi/VPN'd home? Sync calendar, contacts with nextcloud via dav? Schedule a copy of my sandboxed work outlook calendar from Nine into a dav calendar so I can share it (read only) with family? Spit tunnel wireguard traffic? All these work without having to root and I'm not spending my evening trying to fix driver issues. I didn't spend an entire evening on these away from family. I'm not happy giving away the sum total of my experience on this planet to Google but this device just works and it works well. Some conveniences like Android Auto keep me from going to CalyxOS.

mardifoufs 5y ago

Maybe people do not want to use vim on their phones? This is like complaining that your laptop can't run mainframe applications. I guess if you are extremely attached to "your good old way" of doing things, sure, but that's such a limited way to judge platforms. It just amount to not wanting anything to change in your workflow... ever which is okay but not a very good reason to say that "there's no reason for any of the mobile stuff and there arguably never was" when the immense majority of people do not share the same habits.

usrn 5y ago
Sure but then you need a replacement that can do equivalent things (so for vim, notepad would be enough, but iOS doesn't even come with a text editor. You have notes but that only edits files in your mailbox. You can install an app but the app is stuck in its own sandbox etc.) I get the "you should be flexible" but being completely unable to do entire classes of tasks requires more than being flexible about your workflow. Most importantly: all these problems are entirely artificial. There's no actual limitation that creates them, just smartphone vendors declaring "things must be painful."

hiq 5y ago

> All the scripts and little tools I've built up over the years just work (no fighting with namespaces when you switch to root or other weird Android nonsense.) rm -rf / in one of those scripts also just works I assume; my point being that at least part of what you consider nonsense are real security improvements in Android with its permission model. I wish I could easily run Termux and access all everything by default without any restriction, but I also like that I've heard way less stories of viruses on Android than on Windows among my friends.

usrn 5y ago
>rm -rf / in one of those scripts also just works I assume In fact it doesn't, I have GNU rm installed. >I've heard way less stories of viruses on Android than on Windows among my friends. And how often do you here stories of viruses from Linux users? (outside the ones running Wordpress or NPM who carelessly fling executable code from strangers around.) Naive Linux users are protected from this problem but it's done in a very different way: Installing software that the distro maintainers haven't looked at requires a small amount of understanding and thought. They're discouraged from just grabbing executable from the web the way Android and Windows users do and so it's extremely rare that desktop Linux users experience malware (even if you use extremely broad definitions like RMS might. Often maintainers patch out things like telemetry or drop packages containing it altogether) Because of this the kinds of security measures Android has would mostly just get in the way. These tools are all there if you want them. SELinux can sandbox your app and prompt you for permissions. No one does this because it's just not necessary the way most people use typical GNU/Linux distros.
- hiq 5y ago
  > And how often do you here stories of viruses from Linux users? How often do you hear stories of people switching from Windows to Linux? You and I are not relevant, the median user is, and the median user doesn't even understand your comment. The Android (and others) permission model is more than just an arbitrary constraint, it does bring real security benefits, and plain Linux is just not there yet. > SELinux can sandbox your app and prompt you for permissions. No one does this because it's just not necessary the way most people use typical GNU/Linux distros. No one (well, almost) does this because it's a pain and you're not even sure what you get out of it. Compare with the Android installation prompt where the permissions are explicitly spelled out before you click "install", and where the OS can meaningfully take them back eventually.

jotm 5y ago

Sounds pretty nice, actually. I don't have a phone that can run Linux, would love to try it.

woojoo666 5y ago

You use desktop firefox on a smartphone? Got any screenshots I'm very curious how usable that actually is