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> My friend is a respected surgeon, but when he clocks out of the hospital he goes cycling and to the beach. But to become a surgeon, he probably had to put in

by klipt 5y ago

> My friend is a respected surgeon, but when he clocks out of the hospital he goes cycling and to the beach. But to become a surgeon, he probably had to put in ridiculous hours for years as a med student and then resident. Going through that gauntlet is what earned him the reasonable hours and good pay, by reducing his competition. Similarly the people doing leetcode are doing it to stand above the competition and make big bucks in silicon valley. The people working reasonable hours in Spain are making much less extravagant salaries. Basically the general rule is if you desire above average money, you have to put in above average effort at some point in your career. If you want to put in average effort, you have to be happy with average salary. Which is fine for many people. But you won't get FAANG/surgeon pay if you never put in above average effort.

vlunkr 5y ago
> Basically the general rule is if you desire above average money, you have to put in above average effort at some point in your career. My (probably cynical) take is that most SV devs are also 1x. You make the big bucks not just by being a 10x dev, but by some combination of going to the right schools, making the right connections, learning how to negotiate and when to look for new jobs, learning to jump through the big tech interview hoops etc. So yeah, you have to put in above average effort, but maybe not directly into improving your craft.
- gumby 5y ago
  > My (probably cynical) take is that most SV devs are also 1x. Not at all cynical and why not? That's basically my impression and I've been hiring people here for 30+ years. A team needs a mix of people with differing skills and interests. Even notice how "all star" games are so boring? no sabermetics used in picking those people. And in any company, 90+% of the effort is routine stuff, especially once you've launched. This applies to non-programmers too.
- Xeronate 5y ago
  Jumping through big tech interview hoops is the most correct part of your statement and it invalidates the idea that you ned to go to the right school or have the right connections. And for what it's worth, the average FAANG developer I've worked with has been much better than my colleagues at prior companies.
  - ratww 5y ago
    > And for what it's worth, the average FAANG developer I've worked with has been much better than my colleagues at prior companies. I worked at a FAANG and I'd agree with that: the people there were good. But there was a huge caveat: most of them were definitely doing what would be "1x work" in a non-FAANG jobs. FAANG is very good at hiring but not too good at using the people to their full potential.
__app_dev__ 5y ago
FAANG Software Engineer pay is not that great when compared to a Surgeon (or many other good jobs) for people who have been doing other good jobs for decades. How many Software Engineers do you who drive Ferraris? Probably not many, but for Surgeons, Sales People (at good companies) it's not a big deal. No other industry would anyone tolerate being told to study 4-8 hours a day for months for a chance to pass an interview. I realize I'm ranting but I've a Software Engineer with over 20 years experience and I've kind of lost interest being in an industry where the only thing that matters for an interview is how good I can cram leetcode, rather than what I've designed and built. Granted it would be hard for me to easily find something that pays more so I'm not quitting my day job (and now extra night job).
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  There are two ways to prep for interviews. One is to actually learn the principles. The other is to grind and memorize. 4-8 hours a day for months is the latter and is not the intended interview process, though some people go that route. “Review for a weekend” is, in my observation, what people at these companies are hoping that you’ll do.
  - __app_dev__ 5y ago
    One problem though (and I've interviewed at FAANG companies and similar process) is now they really expect you to memorize at lot because other developers are doing it as well. On one of my questions I was supposed to quickly recreate the quick-select algorithm from memory in 10 min. Stuff like this I learned a long time ago but have no need to memorize how to code it by hand quickly. Brushing up for the weekend is not enough if you haven't touched the stuff in 20 years. When I've spoken with recruiters they recommend studying many hours per day ever day for at least 2 months. No doctor, lawyer, real estate agent (and many other much higher paying professions) would ever tolerate this type of interview. Personally the interview prep is so boarding I can't wait for the day to be done with this field (not actually software development) just having to do it for work.
    - hnfong 5y ago

by klipt 5y ago

vlunkr 5y ago

> Basically the general rule is if you desire above average money, you have to put in above average effort at some point in your career. My (probably cynical) take is that most SV devs are also 1x. You make the big bucks not just by being a 10x dev, but by some combination of going to the right schools, making the right connections, learning how to negotiate and when to look for new jobs, learning to jump through the big tech interview hoops etc. So yeah, you have to put in above average effort, but maybe not directly into improving your craft.

gumby 5y ago
> My (probably cynical) take is that most SV devs are also 1x. Not at all cynical and why not? That's basically my impression and I've been hiring people here for 30+ years. A team needs a mix of people with differing skills and interests. Even notice how "all star" games are so boring? no sabermetics used in picking those people. And in any company, 90+% of the effort is routine stuff, especially once you've launched. This applies to non-programmers too.
Xeronate 5y ago
Jumping through big tech interview hoops is the most correct part of your statement and it invalidates the idea that you ned to go to the right school or have the right connections. And for what it's worth, the average FAANG developer I've worked with has been much better than my colleagues at prior companies.
- ratww 5y ago
  > And for what it's worth, the average FAANG developer I've worked with has been much better than my colleagues at prior companies. I worked at a FAANG and I'd agree with that: the people there were good. But there was a huge caveat: most of them were definitely doing what would be "1x work" in a non-FAANG jobs. FAANG is very good at hiring but not too good at using the people to their full potential.

__app_dev__ 5y ago

FAANG Software Engineer pay is not that great when compared to a Surgeon (or many other good jobs) for people who have been doing other good jobs for decades. How many Software Engineers do you who drive Ferraris? Probably not many, but for Surgeons, Sales People (at good companies) it's not a big deal. No other industry would anyone tolerate being told to study 4-8 hours a day for months for a chance to pass an interview. I realize I'm ranting but I've a Software Engineer with over 20 years experience and I've kind of lost interest being in an industry where the only thing that matters for an interview is how good I can cram leetcode, rather than what I've designed and built. Granted it would be hard for me to easily find something that pays more so I'm not quitting my day job (and now extra night job).

UncleMeat 5y ago
There are two ways to prep for interviews. One is to actually learn the principles. The other is to grind and memorize. 4-8 hours a day for months is the latter and is not the intended interview process, though some people go that route. “Review for a weekend” is, in my observation, what people at these companies are hoping that you’ll do.
- __app_dev__ 5y ago
  One problem though (and I've interviewed at FAANG companies and similar process) is now they really expect you to memorize at lot because other developers are doing it as well. On one of my questions I was supposed to quickly recreate the quick-select algorithm from memory in 10 min. Stuff like this I learned a long time ago but have no need to memorize how to code it by hand quickly. Brushing up for the weekend is not enough if you haven't touched the stuff in 20 years. When I've spoken with recruiters they recommend studying many hours per day ever day for at least 2 months. No doctor, lawyer, real estate agent (and many other much higher paying professions) would ever tolerate this type of interview. Personally the interview prep is so boarding I can't wait for the day to be done with this field (not actually software development) just having to do it for work.
  - hnfong 5y ago