17 ms·

I'm surprised this isn't a major diplomatic incident between the UK and Israel too, since the Israeli intelligence company was supposedly "closely monitoring ho

I'm surprised this isn't a major diplomatic incident between the UK and Israel too, since the Israeli intelligence company was supposedly "closely monitoring how their customers were using the software" or akin to that. Like, yeah, blame the UAE mostly for this but let's also have a discussion about why this was sold to anyone who would pay with no oversight at all. Western countries need to do better.

ganoushoreilly 5y ago
3rd and 4th party collection are a hell of a drug
curiousgal 5y ago
Why would that be surprising? I haven't heard about Yemen being outraged at France for selling weapons to the UAE for example. Western countries can't do better, it's how the world has and always will operate.
- 12907835202 5y ago
  I've not heard about France but Yemen has definitely been outraged at Britain for selling weapons to Saudi Arabia...
  - haker9 5y ago
eganist 5y ago
Ironically, the fact that it's not playing out as a major dust-up in public will probably only further contribute to conspiratorial thinking in re: the Israeli gov't.
- usrn 5y ago
  - inter_netuser 5y ago
    Numbers?
    - recuter 5y ago
      This is one of those Pepsi things, probably a bot..
    - girvo 5y ago
      Brand new account posting anti-Semitic conspiracy theory crap. I’d just flag it and move on
- l33tbro 5y ago
  Israel seems to have a relative degree of immunity when it comes to subverting UK pol. Anyone ever see the investigative journalist piece of the Zionist group trying to subvert the UK Labour Party? They had a journalist go undercover for 6 months recording all kinds of things they weren't meant to: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc https://youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc There was only minor fallout from this incident, and I imagine it will be the same here.
  - outoftheabyss 5y ago
    I watched the first 15 minutes of this and what shocked me is how unrevealing it was. If someone recorded me over the course of weeks or months, I would almost certainly say something that would land me in hot water in some sense. This piece of 'investigative journalism' I actually found embarrassing, all this editing to big it up as some major conspiracy when to me, in that 15 mins at least, was at worst run of the mill lobbying. Considering how unsavoury a character Corbyn was, I actually found the subjects incredibly restrained, perhaps part of the JD however.
BitwiseFool 5y ago
>"I'm surprised this isn't a major diplomatic incident between the UK and Israel too." I think Realpolitik is the reason why and that's all I'm going to say about that.
- recuter 5y ago
  The realpolitik of it is that Johnson some weeks ago went to the Saudis hat in hand asking for oil after they've stopped responding to phone calls from POTUS. Last year: The Saudi crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, warned Boris Johnson in a text message that UK-Saudi Arabian relations would be damaged if the British government failed to intervene to “correct” the Premier League’s “wrong” decision not to allow a £300m takeover of Newcastle United last year. The takeover of the club was of course completed shortly afterwards. As were the weapons sales. As for the NSO, it is rather likely that the UK government itself is a client. In fact taking all of that into account it isn't unlikely that the UK government is more than just a customer and was already aware of being "hacked". But that's all I'm going to say about that.
  - forum_ghost 5y ago
    odds are UK and UAE mutually hacked each other.
  - manquer 5y ago
    Some context/background to the deal the sale has been stalled for more than a year at that point , the league had decided arbitrarily to put a fitness check and delay(not reject) the deal. Roman, usmanov (minority holder ) and Abu Dhabi sovereign fund are current owners of major clubs before Saudi Arabia . The stalling and later approval has nothing to do with concerns of sportswashing (PL has sold out any morality they had long before then). The block and later approval was mostly because Qatar was pissed . Qatar owns PSG , hosting 2022 World Cup and most importantly owns lucrative PL broadcast rights in Middle East. beIN with Saudi government informal support has been streaming matches illegally. Complicating this Qatar for last 4/5 years has been pretty much isolated in Middle East and kicked out of many forums in unrelated diplomatic fights. In the end Saudi paid 1Billion pounds to Qatar to settle that dispute before Newcastle could be bought. Sovereign/government influence peddling and involving in sports clubs is nothing new. Real Madrid has benefited a lot over the years , west ham got a brand new stadium for nothing , even in the U.S. favorable policies , tax breaks are used heavily to attract sports teams at city /state level all the time. Democracy or dictators sports are cheap trick to improve ratings , it has been used at least since gladiators in Rome as a tool. My intention is not defend Saudi actions just that it is not surprising governments were involved. Disclaimer : I am a Newcastle fan
baybal2 5y ago
slickrick216 5y ago
The UK sells weapons. Should they be blamed for anyone who is affected by them? Regardless of your own opinion they would argue no. So they can’t be hypocritical. UAE on the other hand is a decrepit money laundering people smuggling cesspit and should face the full brunt of Iran/Russia style sanctions.
- axlee 5y ago
  I can guarantee you that if the UK was supplying weapons to a country that was using them against its own allies, there would be an incident, and at the very least they would stop supplying them. There is no hypcrisy - yet.
  - baybal2 5y ago
- stefan_ 5y ago
  These trojans do not run without central C&C, already proven in the past to be run by NSO. Selling a weapon is not travelling into a war zone and firing it off on behalf of who hired you; that's what a mercenary does, under punishment of death.
- Proudmuslim 5y ago
  The UK is where the world's dictators and corrupt politicians hide their money. Does that mean you think that the UK should "face the full brunt of Iran/Russia style sanctions"? Take your double standards elsewhere.
  - slickrick216 5y ago
    I agree. Not double standards.
postingposts 5y ago
- runnerup 5y ago
  > I really don’t feel that anyone is prepared to have a serious discussion regarding Israel, and I believe that’s mainly because… …Israel’s intelligence finds or creates blackmail on more than enough key politicians and their staff in the western countries.
  - postingposts 5y ago
    “Israel’s intelligence” is like a gang member calling themselves “lil NSA” or some shit. It’s the NSA and globalist interests within the US who don’t like the idea that nations are nations and they don’t control the Earth. It’s very insulting to people with compensate for a lack of personality or wit with egotism to be told you can’t just “do whatever” when you have a billion dollars. Again, I think no one is ready for a serious conversation about this. We don’t consider our rich mentally ill, and therefore there can be little else to be said or done.
    - recuter 5y ago
      Sounds like they are a very powerful force not only controlling your mentally ill rich but also living rent free in your head.
      - postingposts 5y ago
        Could you explain what this comment means? It doesn’t make sense. ESL?
  - ben_w 5y ago
    I expect basically every intelligence agency to do that to everyone else. On the other hand, Johnson and many of his staff clearly can’t be blackmailed because he and many of them are totally shameless.
- 5y ago
jimbob45 5y ago
>since the Israeli intelligence company was supposedly "closely monitoring how their customers were using the software" If the Israelis were going to veto a country's use of the software, it's reasonable to assume that the country was intelligent enough not to tell them what they were doing with it.
- alasdair_ 5y ago
  The important thing to realize is that NSO doesn’t just hand over their attack tools completely. If they did, they would just get copied and they wouldn’t be able to charge for them. NSO maintains control and is semi-actively involved in the exploitation (NSO servers are used and they control this access). This is very different from selling someone a knife that is later used in a murder. There is a very good Darknet Diaries breakdown of what the NSO group can and cannot do - https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/100/ https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/100/ - and despite their claims otherwise, the evidence strongly points to them being complicit in attacks rather than just being a vendor.
throwaway829 5y ago
Expecting any honest reporting on Israel is naive. That hasn't happened for 70+ years.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
qiskit 5y ago
> I'm surprised this isn't a major diplomatic incident between the UK and Israel too Are you really surprised? I'd be surprised if the UK and its media made a fuss about it. Certainly we won't be making a fuss about it here in the US that's for sure. I'd imagine russia and china wishes they had 1/10th the influence that israel has in the US/UK. Say what you want about israel, but for such a tiny country, it punches far above its weight.
- coliveira 5y ago
  I don't know about Russia, but China doesn't let people from other nationalities to occupy positions of power especially in foreign policy, in which they're completely right. This is the main weakness of the USA and UK. They will let foreign born people to raise to power and dictate self servicing policies, many times in detriment to their own population. For example, take Henry Kissinger: a german born person, he spent his whole life influencing American policy to accommodate his views concerning Europe and the rest of the world. It is not a surprise that the Western world is in this situation.
  - petre 5y ago
    The UK is quite xenophobic as it is. No need for extra laws to prohibit foreigners to ascend to positions of power. Your peers will take care of that. I'm quite surprised that an UK born citizen of Pakistani heritage is currently the mayor of London. Maybe Labour is less xenophobic that the others.
    - petesergeant 5y ago
      > I'm quite surprised that an UK born citizen of Pakistani heritage is currently the mayor of London The only surprise here is that he's Labour, not Tory. Half of the current Great Offices of State are held by brown people under the Tories, who also had the first Jewish PM, the first (and second, and only) female PMs, and then there's Saj who's been Chancellor and Home Secretary, and I reckon is about as likely as Sunak to be the next PM. They appointed the first female, gay head of the Met Police, and the leader of the party in Scotland was also a gay woman for 8 very recent years. Some of these people are clearly the worst of British politics (hello Priti Patel!), but the Tories have an excellent record of putting people who aren't straight, white, Christian men into positions of power.
ajsnigrutin 5y ago
Politics... If russia did that, they would be treated a lot differently than israel or eg. USA.
- KKKKkkkk1 5y ago
  > If russia did that, they would be treated a lot differently than israel or eg. USA. Russia poisoned multiple British nationals with chemical and radioactive weapons on British soil and got away with it scot-free. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51722301 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51722301
  - Synaesthesia 5y ago
    There are definitely some holes in the allegations. https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/04/pure-ten-points-i-just-cant-believe-about-the-official-skripal-narrative/ https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/04/pure-ten-poi...
    - bigDinosaur 5y ago
      Is there any particular reason this link is actually worth reading? Is 'Crag Murray' a former high-level politician/intelligence officer with useful information? Do they have a track record of finding genuine and severe issues with government narratives?
      - mrmikardo 5y ago
        Craig is a former ambassador to Uzbekistan, who served in the Foreign Office for many years. He's since dedicated a lot of his time to following and reporting on the Assange case in the UK. He doesn't hide his opinions, some of which are quite strongly worded, but I don't think that makes him less worthwhile as an observer. I'd say he is less of a fact-finder/whistleblower and more of an analyser/commenter. I personally find his articles insightful and nuanced.
        5y ago
Jenk 5y ago
The current home secretary, Priti Patel, was forced to resign from her previous (lesser) role as Minister for International Development for secretly (and thus illegally) meeting with Israeli diplomats. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41923007 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41923007 It is completely unsurprising that there is little care shown by our government.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- KarlKemp 5y ago
  Doesn't the fact that she had to resign point to the opposite conclusion, namely that these governments are distinct entities with sometimes conflicting interests?
  - strbean 5y ago
    She is now Home Secretary of the UK. She got fired upwards.
    - killingtime74 5y ago
      I too hope I will be fired some day (upwards)
    - BoxOfRain 5y ago
      The current Cabinet is suffering from a serious lack of talent in my opinion; several political purges related to Brexit has meant the only real qualifying characteristic for some of the highest offices in the land is being a yes-man for Johnson.
      - oscargrouch 5y ago
        Now that you are saying this.. take a look everywhere, it's all like this.. every country turned into the worst versions of themselves, but even the worst of UK its kind of not bad in my opinion, compared to other countries. At least from an outside view, it's the UK now that is showing a good leadership in the current worldwide crises. While the US, France and Germany are completely lost, especially on how to deal with a "strong-man". (Meanwhile nobody remembers Cameron or that guy that was a pure puppet of the US in the forced Iraq war, and they were the posh gentleman everyone was expecting)
sgjohnson 5y ago
> let's also have a discussion about why this was sold to anyone who would pay with no oversight at all. There will always be cyberweapon brokers. If not NSO, then someone else. And money talks. Why would there be any oversight? What you need is plausible deniability. I’d prefer if they started selling Pegasus to absolutely anyone at all. Like, online, for $999 a month or something. Maybe then there will be actual efforts to patch the vulnerabilities that are being exploited for it to work.
- ehsankia 5y ago
  > If not NSO, then someone else. There's a big difference between an underground group doing it in semi-secrecy, vs a state-sponsored company doing it publicly. With said company somehow not being sued into the ground or said country's action not being taken as an act of war in situations like this. > I’d prefer if they started selling Pegasus to absolutely anyone at all The high value of what they offer comes from the scarcity, which result in lower likelihood of it being patched.
  - 0xedd 5y ago
    NSO isn't the equivalent of NSA. While NSA is part of the US government and actively spied on allied countries with no repercussions, NSO is a privately held company employing ex intelligence. With mandatory service at 18 and the private sector paying between 8 to 10 times more, it's common to find these intelligence boys leaving the service asap and working in different private companies. Implying Israel has anything to do with NSO or that the government is behind it, coupled with the amount of attention this gets relative to a company like Italian based Hacking Team (which both the FBI and Russian government made business with) is cause for concern. Is this hacker news or culturally biased vent club? I think the domain cyclonefront is nice for a new forum, don't you? You can be an admin there, grow a short mustache and do quarter jumping-jacks.
    - ehsankia 5y ago
      NSA doesn't sell Hacking as as Service to foreign countries. While NSO isn't part of the government, their work and existence is obviously very much endorsed and allowed by their government.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
DSingularity 5y ago
> Western countries need to do better Yeah, I agree. The western nations which built their lead through brutal colonialism and presently maintain that lead with neo-colonialism structures where brutal governments (Saudi Arabia, Israel, UAE) do the dirty work which they (western countries) ostensibly condemn. How about this: let’s have the western countries leave the world alone. Let’s have the western countries abandon their profit by misery business models (eg western arms industries which profiteer by instigating conflict and supplying aggressors).
- InCityDreams 5y ago
  And affect my style of living? No thanks, I'll stayas i am and keep my blind eyes turning.
KarlKemp 5y ago
There are a few thousand kids (and their parents) in Yemen that became all-too-literal "end customers" for American exports of the non-cultural or Apple variety. It's fundamentally the same, except the impact was not metaphorical.
markus_zhang 5y ago
Maybe certain interest group within UK is working with certain interest group in Israel and "borrowed" Pegasus to use against other interest group(s). Actually Yes Minster joked about surveillance put on certain ministers. Can watch for fun. Sitcoms nowadays rarely talk about political issues.
csmpltn 5y ago
> "Like, yeah, blame the UAE mostly for this but let's also have a discussion about why this was sold to anyone who would pay with no oversight at all. Western countries need to do better." The UK itself is one of the largest weapon exporters in the world, exporting to many countries in the Middle East with dubious human rights track records. The UK government can't possibly know what happens with every single pistol, bullet, missile or drone they sell (if they could, nobody would be buying): [1] https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8310/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_arms_export https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_arms_export A private Israeli company is exporting weapons to the same countries the UK does, and when those weapons get used inappropriately, you're then "surprised this isn't a major diplomatic incident between the UK and Israel". By the same account, are you suggesting that there should be a major diplomatic incident between every country in the world and the UK/USA every time they catch terrorists somewhere around the world using either UK/USA built-or-designed firearms? There wouldn't be any diplomatic relationships left then: [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-produced_firearms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-produced_firearms
- CamelRocketFish 5y ago
  The difference is NSO control the Pegasus servers. They know who is using their tools and who is being targeted. This isn’t the same as untraced weapons.
  - csmpltn 5y ago
    I'm not challenging your assertion, I'm genuinely looking for backing evidence here. Do you have evidence that NSO knows who is being targeted by the tools they sell?
    - CamelRocketFish 5y ago
      Of course, the most digestible form of it is on this podcast: https://open.spotify.com/episode/38RuwrVwAHNXgHLDOANtmj https://open.spotify.com/episode/38RuwrVwAHNXgHLDOANtmj Sources are then linked on their site.
raxxorraxor 5y ago
Because western countries use the same services to spy on their citizens. Even if they feigned outrage, the potential blowback could topple some people. Besides, governments also tend not to want to be scrutinized on moral ground for trading war assets of any kind. Why should I be enraged if government officials were put under surveillance? They made abundantly clear that they are in favor of increased monitoring. Their secret surveillance programs were laid open. So how do you propose they should do better?
- pooper 5y ago
  My outrage against dragnet was never about me, personally. I know I am way too unimportant to surveil. It has always been about the next thought leader, who could come from any background, from being nipped in the bud. I'm sure "they" would have loved being able to contain MLK Jr before he even had a chance to have any following » Why should I be enraged if government officials were put under surveillance? I am not worried about the officials themselves but the people who talk to them. Once again, the next thought leader, who could be but will never be because of the surveillance and subsequent actions.
  - raxxorraxor 5y ago
    They even tried it back in the day and with the modern surveillance we probably would not have heard from him at all. Just the right bribe to deflect the issues and it will never become a large issue in the first place. It doesn't even have to be malicious, there are people working in these agencies that are trained to follow orders. They believe intrinsically that what they do is necessary for security. No appeal will ever work, just a tight corset of regulation or protections by law that have actual teeth with heavy sanctions against misconduct. Today some agencies just blatantly disregard the most fundamental laws. If you scrap those you don't even need terrorists anymore, you did it all to yourself.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      'They believe intrinsically that what they do is necessary for security.' That's thr rub isn't it - if you startva security agency thst does terrible things, it will hire people that can somehow justify and rationalise those terrible things Very few people in KGB or whatever thought that they did anything wrong
dreen 5y ago
The whole thing is barely in the news
simonh 5y ago
There's nothing to be gained by wringing our hands and kicking up a public fuss, crying to the press about it. That's not how grownups do business. We all know everyone spies on everyone else, it's a given. I'm sure GCHQ spies on Israel and UAE. For all we know the security services already knew about this and were feeding false info to manipulate the UAE. Heck, the Israelis might have even tipped us off, I'm sure they value their relationship to us much more than with the UAE. I'd give it at least 50/50 Munk School trying to 'help' us just trashed a perfectly good MI6 counterintelligence op. That's the sort of way these things work.
- ignoramous 5y ago
  Not saying you are wrong, but the kind of leaps in assumptions you make remind me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
  - simonh 5y ago
    I'm not making any assumptions, I'm saying we just don't know. Those like the poster I'm responding to suggesting this mean this or that for international relations, and we should be responding this way or that way are making assumptions. I'm pointing out those assumptions are unsupported and somewhat naive.
FerretFred 5y ago
> surprised this isn't a major diplomatic incident It all depends who the (UK) Government is "friends" with. Let's not forget the infamous Russian Novichok poisoning cases in Salisbury - those naughty Russians! The Saudis execute 81 citizens in a day, and Boris visits the day after to beg for oil and gas - those naughty Saudis! I'm not surprised it isn't a major diplomatic incident!

ganoushoreilly 5y ago

3rd and 4th party collection are a hell of a drug

curiousgal 5y ago

Why would that be surprising? I haven't heard about Yemen being outraged at France for selling weapons to the UAE for example. Western countries can't do better, it's how the world has and always will operate.

12907835202 5y ago
I've not heard about France but Yemen has definitely been outraged at Britain for selling weapons to Saudi Arabia...
- haker9 5y ago

eganist 5y ago

Ironically, the fact that it's not playing out as a major dust-up in public will probably only further contribute to conspiratorial thinking in re: the Israeli gov't.

usrn 5y ago
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  Numbers?
  - recuter 5y ago
    This is one of those Pepsi things, probably a bot..
  - girvo 5y ago
    Brand new account posting anti-Semitic conspiracy theory crap. I’d just flag it and move on
l33tbro 5y ago
Israel seems to have a relative degree of immunity when it comes to subverting UK pol. Anyone ever see the investigative journalist piece of the Zionist group trying to subvert the UK Labour Party? They had a journalist go undercover for 6 months recording all kinds of things they weren't meant to: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc https://youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc There was only minor fallout from this incident, and I imagine it will be the same here.
- outoftheabyss 5y ago
  I watched the first 15 minutes of this and what shocked me is how unrevealing it was. If someone recorded me over the course of weeks or months, I would almost certainly say something that would land me in hot water in some sense. This piece of 'investigative journalism' I actually found embarrassing, all this editing to big it up as some major conspiracy when to me, in that 15 mins at least, was at worst run of the mill lobbying. Considering how unsavoury a character Corbyn was, I actually found the subjects incredibly restrained, perhaps part of the JD however.

BitwiseFool 5y ago

>"I'm surprised this isn't a major diplomatic incident between the UK and Israel too." I think Realpolitik is the reason why and that's all I'm going to say about that.

recuter 5y ago
The realpolitik of it is that Johnson some weeks ago went to the Saudis hat in hand asking for oil after they've stopped responding to phone calls from POTUS. Last year: The Saudi crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, warned Boris Johnson in a text message that UK-Saudi Arabian relations would be damaged if the British government failed to intervene to “correct” the Premier League’s “wrong” decision not to allow a £300m takeover of Newcastle United last year. The takeover of the club was of course completed shortly afterwards. As were the weapons sales. As for the NSO, it is rather likely that the UK government itself is a client. In fact taking all of that into account it isn't unlikely that the UK government is more than just a customer and was already aware of being "hacked". But that's all I'm going to say about that.
- forum_ghost 5y ago
  odds are UK and UAE mutually hacked each other.
- manquer 5y ago
  Some context/background to the deal the sale has been stalled for more than a year at that point , the league had decided arbitrarily to put a fitness check and delay(not reject) the deal. Roman, usmanov (minority holder ) and Abu Dhabi sovereign fund are current owners of major clubs before Saudi Arabia . The stalling and later approval has nothing to do with concerns of sportswashing (PL has sold out any morality they had long before then). The block and later approval was mostly because Qatar was pissed . Qatar owns PSG , hosting 2022 World Cup and most importantly owns lucrative PL broadcast rights in Middle East. beIN with Saudi government informal support has been streaming matches illegally. Complicating this Qatar for last 4/5 years has been pretty much isolated in Middle East and kicked out of many forums in unrelated diplomatic fights. In the end Saudi paid 1Billion pounds to Qatar to settle that dispute before Newcastle could be bought. Sovereign/government influence peddling and involving in sports clubs is nothing new. Real Madrid has benefited a lot over the years , west ham got a brand new stadium for nothing , even in the U.S. favorable policies , tax breaks are used heavily to attract sports teams at city /state level all the time. Democracy or dictators sports are cheap trick to improve ratings , it has been used at least since gladiators in Rome as a tool. My intention is not defend Saudi actions just that it is not surprising governments were involved. Disclaimer : I am a Newcastle fan

baybal2 5y ago

slickrick216 5y ago

The UK sells weapons. Should they be blamed for anyone who is affected by them? Regardless of your own opinion they would argue no. So they can’t be hypocritical. UAE on the other hand is a decrepit money laundering people smuggling cesspit and should face the full brunt of Iran/Russia style sanctions.

axlee 5y ago
I can guarantee you that if the UK was supplying weapons to a country that was using them against its own allies, there would be an incident, and at the very least they would stop supplying them. There is no hypcrisy - yet.
- baybal2 5y ago
stefan_ 5y ago
These trojans do not run without central C&C, already proven in the past to be run by NSO. Selling a weapon is not travelling into a war zone and firing it off on behalf of who hired you; that's what a mercenary does, under punishment of death.
Proudmuslim 5y ago
The UK is where the world's dictators and corrupt politicians hide their money. Does that mean you think that the UK should "face the full brunt of Iran/Russia style sanctions"? Take your double standards elsewhere.
- slickrick216 5y ago
  I agree. Not double standards.

postingposts 5y ago

runnerup 5y ago
> I really don’t feel that anyone is prepared to have a serious discussion regarding Israel, and I believe that’s mainly because… …Israel’s intelligence finds or creates blackmail on more than enough key politicians and their staff in the western countries.
- postingposts 5y ago
  “Israel’s intelligence” is like a gang member calling themselves “lil NSA” or some shit. It’s the NSA and globalist interests within the US who don’t like the idea that nations are nations and they don’t control the Earth. It’s very insulting to people with compensate for a lack of personality or wit with egotism to be told you can’t just “do whatever” when you have a billion dollars. Again, I think no one is ready for a serious conversation about this. We don’t consider our rich mentally ill, and therefore there can be little else to be said or done.
  - recuter 5y ago
    Sounds like they are a very powerful force not only controlling your mentally ill rich but also living rent free in your head.
    - postingposts 5y ago
      Could you explain what this comment means? It doesn’t make sense. ESL?
- ben_w 5y ago
  I expect basically every intelligence agency to do that to everyone else. On the other hand, Johnson and many of his staff clearly can’t be blackmailed because he and many of them are totally shameless.
5y ago

jimbob45 5y ago

>since the Israeli intelligence company was supposedly "closely monitoring how their customers were using the software" If the Israelis were going to veto a country's use of the software, it's reasonable to assume that the country was intelligent enough not to tell them what they were doing with it.

alasdair_ 5y ago
The important thing to realize is that NSO doesn’t just hand over their attack tools completely. If they did, they would just get copied and they wouldn’t be able to charge for them. NSO maintains control and is semi-actively involved in the exploitation (NSO servers are used and they control this access). This is very different from selling someone a knife that is later used in a murder. There is a very good Darknet Diaries breakdown of what the NSO group can and cannot do - https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/100/ https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/100/ - and despite their claims otherwise, the evidence strongly points to them being complicit in attacks rather than just being a vendor.

throwaway829 5y ago

Expecting any honest reporting on Israel is naive. That hasn't happened for 70+ years.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

qiskit 5y ago

> I'm surprised this isn't a major diplomatic incident between the UK and Israel too Are you really surprised? I'd be surprised if the UK and its media made a fuss about it. Certainly we won't be making a fuss about it here in the US that's for sure. I'd imagine russia and china wishes they had 1/10th the influence that israel has in the US/UK. Say what you want about israel, but for such a tiny country, it punches far above its weight.

coliveira 5y ago
I don't know about Russia, but China doesn't let people from other nationalities to occupy positions of power especially in foreign policy, in which they're completely right. This is the main weakness of the USA and UK. They will let foreign born people to raise to power and dictate self servicing policies, many times in detriment to their own population. For example, take Henry Kissinger: a german born person, he spent his whole life influencing American policy to accommodate his views concerning Europe and the rest of the world. It is not a surprise that the Western world is in this situation.
- petre 5y ago
  The UK is quite xenophobic as it is. No need for extra laws to prohibit foreigners to ascend to positions of power. Your peers will take care of that. I'm quite surprised that an UK born citizen of Pakistani heritage is currently the mayor of London. Maybe Labour is less xenophobic that the others.
  - petesergeant 5y ago
    > I'm quite surprised that an UK born citizen of Pakistani heritage is currently the mayor of London The only surprise here is that he's Labour, not Tory. Half of the current Great Offices of State are held by brown people under the Tories, who also had the first Jewish PM, the first (and second, and only) female PMs, and then there's Saj who's been Chancellor and Home Secretary, and I reckon is about as likely as Sunak to be the next PM. They appointed the first female, gay head of the Met Police, and the leader of the party in Scotland was also a gay woman for 8 very recent years. Some of these people are clearly the worst of British politics (hello Priti Patel!), but the Tories have an excellent record of putting people who aren't straight, white, Christian men into positions of power.

ajsnigrutin 5y ago

Politics... If russia did that, they would be treated a lot differently than israel or eg. USA.

KKKKkkkk1 5y ago
> If russia did that, they would be treated a lot differently than israel or eg. USA. Russia poisoned multiple British nationals with chemical and radioactive weapons on British soil and got away with it scot-free. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51722301 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51722301
- Synaesthesia 5y ago
  There are definitely some holes in the allegations. https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/04/pure-ten-points-i-just-cant-believe-about-the-official-skripal-narrative/ https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/04/pure-ten-poi...
  - bigDinosaur 5y ago
    Is there any particular reason this link is actually worth reading? Is 'Crag Murray' a former high-level politician/intelligence officer with useful information? Do they have a track record of finding genuine and severe issues with government narratives?
    - mrmikardo 5y ago
      Craig is a former ambassador to Uzbekistan, who served in the Foreign Office for many years. He's since dedicated a lot of his time to following and reporting on the Assange case in the UK. He doesn't hide his opinions, some of which are quite strongly worded, but I don't think that makes him less worthwhile as an observer. I'd say he is less of a fact-finder/whistleblower and more of an analyser/commenter. I personally find his articles insightful and nuanced.
      - 5y ago

Jenk 5y ago

The current home secretary, Priti Patel, was forced to resign from her previous (lesser) role as Minister for International Development for secretly (and thus illegally) meeting with Israeli diplomats. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41923007 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41923007 It is completely unsurprising that there is little care shown by our government.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
KarlKemp 5y ago
Doesn't the fact that she had to resign point to the opposite conclusion, namely that these governments are distinct entities with sometimes conflicting interests?
- strbean 5y ago
  She is now Home Secretary of the UK. She got fired upwards.
  - killingtime74 5y ago
    I too hope I will be fired some day (upwards)
  - BoxOfRain 5y ago
    The current Cabinet is suffering from a serious lack of talent in my opinion; several political purges related to Brexit has meant the only real qualifying characteristic for some of the highest offices in the land is being a yes-man for Johnson.
    - oscargrouch 5y ago
      Now that you are saying this.. take a look everywhere, it's all like this.. every country turned into the worst versions of themselves, but even the worst of UK its kind of not bad in my opinion, compared to other countries. At least from an outside view, it's the UK now that is showing a good leadership in the current worldwide crises. While the US, France and Germany are completely lost, especially on how to deal with a "strong-man". (Meanwhile nobody remembers Cameron or that guy that was a pure puppet of the US in the forced Iraq war, and they were the posh gentleman everyone was expecting)

sgjohnson 5y ago

> let's also have a discussion about why this was sold to anyone who would pay with no oversight at all. There will always be cyberweapon brokers. If not NSO, then someone else. And money talks. Why would there be any oversight? What you need is plausible deniability. I’d prefer if they started selling Pegasus to absolutely anyone at all. Like, online, for $999 a month or something. Maybe then there will be actual efforts to patch the vulnerabilities that are being exploited for it to work.

ehsankia 5y ago
> If not NSO, then someone else. There's a big difference between an underground group doing it in semi-secrecy, vs a state-sponsored company doing it publicly. With said company somehow not being sued into the ground or said country's action not being taken as an act of war in situations like this. > I’d prefer if they started selling Pegasus to absolutely anyone at all The high value of what they offer comes from the scarcity, which result in lower likelihood of it being patched.
- 0xedd 5y ago
  NSO isn't the equivalent of NSA. While NSA is part of the US government and actively spied on allied countries with no repercussions, NSO is a privately held company employing ex intelligence. With mandatory service at 18 and the private sector paying between 8 to 10 times more, it's common to find these intelligence boys leaving the service asap and working in different private companies. Implying Israel has anything to do with NSO or that the government is behind it, coupled with the amount of attention this gets relative to a company like Italian based Hacking Team (which both the FBI and Russian government made business with) is cause for concern. Is this hacker news or culturally biased vent club? I think the domain cyclonefront is nice for a new forum, don't you? You can be an admin there, grow a short mustache and do quarter jumping-jacks.
  - ehsankia 5y ago
    NSA doesn't sell Hacking as as Service to foreign countries. While NSO isn't part of the government, their work and existence is obviously very much endorsed and allowed by their government.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

DSingularity 5y ago

> Western countries need to do better Yeah, I agree. The western nations which built their lead through brutal colonialism and presently maintain that lead with neo-colonialism structures where brutal governments (Saudi Arabia, Israel, UAE) do the dirty work which they (western countries) ostensibly condemn. How about this: let’s have the western countries leave the world alone. Let’s have the western countries abandon their profit by misery business models (eg western arms industries which profiteer by instigating conflict and supplying aggressors).

InCityDreams 5y ago
And affect my style of living? No thanks, I'll stayas i am and keep my blind eyes turning.

KarlKemp 5y ago

There are a few thousand kids (and their parents) in Yemen that became all-too-literal "end customers" for American exports of the non-cultural or Apple variety. It's fundamentally the same, except the impact was not metaphorical.

markus_zhang 5y ago

Maybe certain interest group within UK is working with certain interest group in Israel and "borrowed" Pegasus to use against other interest group(s). Actually Yes Minster joked about surveillance put on certain ministers. Can watch for fun. Sitcoms nowadays rarely talk about political issues.

csmpltn 5y ago

> "Like, yeah, blame the UAE mostly for this but let's also have a discussion about why this was sold to anyone who would pay with no oversight at all. Western countries need to do better." The UK itself is one of the largest weapon exporters in the world, exporting to many countries in the Middle East with dubious human rights track records. The UK government can't possibly know what happens with every single pistol, bullet, missile or drone they sell (if they could, nobody would be buying): [1] https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8310/ https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_arms_export https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_arms_export A private Israeli company is exporting weapons to the same countries the UK does, and when those weapons get used inappropriately, you're then "surprised this isn't a major diplomatic incident between the UK and Israel". By the same account, are you suggesting that there should be a major diplomatic incident between every country in the world and the UK/USA every time they catch terrorists somewhere around the world using either UK/USA built-or-designed firearms? There wouldn't be any diplomatic relationships left then: [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-produced_firearms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-produced_firearms

CamelRocketFish 5y ago
The difference is NSO control the Pegasus servers. They know who is using their tools and who is being targeted. This isn’t the same as untraced weapons.
- csmpltn 5y ago
  I'm not challenging your assertion, I'm genuinely looking for backing evidence here. Do you have evidence that NSO knows who is being targeted by the tools they sell?
  - CamelRocketFish 5y ago
    Of course, the most digestible form of it is on this podcast: https://open.spotify.com/episode/38RuwrVwAHNXgHLDOANtmj https://open.spotify.com/episode/38RuwrVwAHNXgHLDOANtmj Sources are then linked on their site.

raxxorraxor 5y ago

Because western countries use the same services to spy on their citizens. Even if they feigned outrage, the potential blowback could topple some people. Besides, governments also tend not to want to be scrutinized on moral ground for trading war assets of any kind. Why should I be enraged if government officials were put under surveillance? They made abundantly clear that they are in favor of increased monitoring. Their secret surveillance programs were laid open. So how do you propose they should do better?

pooper 5y ago
My outrage against dragnet was never about me, personally. I know I am way too unimportant to surveil. It has always been about the next thought leader, who could come from any background, from being nipped in the bud. I'm sure "they" would have loved being able to contain MLK Jr before he even had a chance to have any following » Why should I be enraged if government officials were put under surveillance? I am not worried about the officials themselves but the people who talk to them. Once again, the next thought leader, who could be but will never be because of the surveillance and subsequent actions.
- raxxorraxor 5y ago
  They even tried it back in the day and with the modern surveillance we probably would not have heard from him at all. Just the right bribe to deflect the issues and it will never become a large issue in the first place. It doesn't even have to be malicious, there are people working in these agencies that are trained to follow orders. They believe intrinsically that what they do is necessary for security. No appeal will ever work, just a tight corset of regulation or protections by law that have actual teeth with heavy sanctions against misconduct. Today some agencies just blatantly disregard the most fundamental laws. If you scrap those you don't even need terrorists anymore, you did it all to yourself.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    'They believe intrinsically that what they do is necessary for security.' That's thr rub isn't it - if you startva security agency thst does terrible things, it will hire people that can somehow justify and rationalise those terrible things Very few people in KGB or whatever thought that they did anything wrong

dreen 5y ago

The whole thing is barely in the news

simonh 5y ago

There's nothing to be gained by wringing our hands and kicking up a public fuss, crying to the press about it. That's not how grownups do business. We all know everyone spies on everyone else, it's a given. I'm sure GCHQ spies on Israel and UAE. For all we know the security services already knew about this and were feeding false info to manipulate the UAE. Heck, the Israelis might have even tipped us off, I'm sure they value their relationship to us much more than with the UAE. I'd give it at least 50/50 Munk School trying to 'help' us just trashed a perfectly good MI6 counterintelligence op. That's the sort of way these things work.

ignoramous 5y ago
Not saying you are wrong, but the kind of leaps in assumptions you make remind me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
- simonh 5y ago
  I'm not making any assumptions, I'm saying we just don't know. Those like the poster I'm responding to suggesting this mean this or that for international relations, and we should be responding this way or that way are making assumptions. I'm pointing out those assumptions are unsupported and somewhat naive.

FerretFred 5y ago

> surprised this isn't a major diplomatic incident It all depends who the (UK) Government is "friends" with. Let's not forget the infamous Russian Novichok poisoning cases in Salisbury - those naughty Russians! The Saudis execute 81 citizens in a day, and Boris visits the day after to beg for oil and gas - those naughty Saudis! I'm not surprised it isn't a major diplomatic incident!