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> Some will argue that one could never be a good developer following those principles. I'll argue those people need a reality check based on how things work in

by jjav 5y ago

> Some will argue that one could never be a good developer following those principles. I'll argue those people need a reality check based on how things work in every other profession. My dentist is a great dentist but she works 8am-3pm and most decidedly does not spend an additional 8 hours slogging through leettooth exercises on topics barely realated to the practice of dentistry. My friend is a respected surgeon, but when he clocks out of the hospital he goes cycling and to the beach. Same goes for pretty much every professional career outside of software development. Many of those have continuous education requirements, but they are done as part of the job. For example my dentist is out several weeks a year on that, not available for appointments. So I agree with the above list, but there's nothing to apologize for in it. Working 9-5 and then completely disconnecting is the mark of a professional.

shaftoe444 5y ago
leettooth lol
zimpenfish 5y ago
> I'll argue those people need a reality check based on how things work in every other profession. Unfortunately, at least in my recent London experience, those people tend to be the ones having the yay/nay in hiring decisions.
klipt 5y ago
> My friend is a respected surgeon, but when he clocks out of the hospital he goes cycling and to the beach. But to become a surgeon, he probably had to put in ridiculous hours for years as a med student and then resident. Going through that gauntlet is what earned him the reasonable hours and good pay, by reducing his competition. Similarly the people doing leetcode are doing it to stand above the competition and make big bucks in silicon valley. The people working reasonable hours in Spain are making much less extravagant salaries. Basically the general rule is if you desire above average money, you have to put in above average effort at some point in your career. If you want to put in average effort, you have to be happy with average salary. Which is fine for many people. But you won't get FAANG/surgeon pay if you never put in above average effort.
- vlunkr 5y ago
  > Basically the general rule is if you desire above average money, you have to put in above average effort at some point in your career. My (probably cynical) take is that most SV devs are also 1x. You make the big bucks not just by being a 10x dev, but by some combination of going to the right schools, making the right connections, learning how to negotiate and when to look for new jobs, learning to jump through the big tech interview hoops etc. So yeah, you have to put in above average effort, but maybe not directly into improving your craft.
  - gumby 5y ago
    > My (probably cynical) take is that most SV devs are also 1x. Not at all cynical and why not? That's basically my impression and I've been hiring people here for 30+ years. A team needs a mix of people with differing skills and interests. Even notice how "all star" games are so boring? no sabermetics used in picking those people. And in any company, 90+% of the effort is routine stuff, especially once you've launched. This applies to non-programmers too.
  - Xeronate 5y ago
    Jumping through big tech interview hoops is the most correct part of your statement and it invalidates the idea that you ned to go to the right school or have the right connections. And for what it's worth, the average FAANG developer I've worked with has been much better than my colleagues at prior companies.
    - ratww 5y ago
      > And for what it's worth, the average FAANG developer I've worked with has been much better than my colleagues at prior companies. I worked at a FAANG and I'd agree with that: the people there were good. But there was a huge caveat: most of them were definitely doing what would be "1x work" in a non-FAANG jobs. FAANG is very good at hiring but not too good at using the people to their full potential.
- __app_dev__ 5y ago
  FAANG Software Engineer pay is not that great when compared to a Surgeon (or many other good jobs) for people who have been doing other good jobs for decades. How many Software Engineers do you who drive Ferraris? Probably not many, but for Surgeons, Sales People (at good companies) it's not a big deal. No other industry would anyone tolerate being told to study 4-8 hours a day for months for a chance to pass an interview. I realize I'm ranting but I've a Software Engineer with over 20 years experience and I've kind of lost interest being in an industry where the only thing that matters for an interview is how good I can cram leetcode, rather than what I've designed and built. Granted it would be hard for me to easily find something that pays more so I'm not quitting my day job (and now extra night job).
bumby 5y ago
>completely disconnecting is the mark of a professional. Slight nitpick, but this is the mark of a person with a vocation. A "professional" answers to a higher ethical calling. The name derives from "professing" an oath; for example, for a doctor to "do no harm" or an engineer to work in the public good. This can occur within a 9-5 window, but I would expect that, if needed, a professional would put their oath above clock hours if it was in conflict.
- mlady 5y ago
  I would argue the other way around. A "professional" gets paid for a job, full stop. A "vocation" derives from "to call", or someone's "calling", as in someone's purpose in life. Maybe our etymology is what sets us up for work-life imbalance :)
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bumby 5y ago
    >A "professional" gets paid for a job, full stop Clergy was the first example where the term derived so I don't know if the roots of the word align with your definition. Granted, colloquial usage changes word meanings over time.

by jjav 5y ago

shaftoe444 5y ago

leettooth lol

zimpenfish 5y ago

> I'll argue those people need a reality check based on how things work in every other profession. Unfortunately, at least in my recent London experience, those people tend to be the ones having the yay/nay in hiring decisions.

klipt 5y ago

> My friend is a respected surgeon, but when he clocks out of the hospital he goes cycling and to the beach. But to become a surgeon, he probably had to put in ridiculous hours for years as a med student and then resident. Going through that gauntlet is what earned him the reasonable hours and good pay, by reducing his competition. Similarly the people doing leetcode are doing it to stand above the competition and make big bucks in silicon valley. The people working reasonable hours in Spain are making much less extravagant salaries. Basically the general rule is if you desire above average money, you have to put in above average effort at some point in your career. If you want to put in average effort, you have to be happy with average salary. Which is fine for many people. But you won't get FAANG/surgeon pay if you never put in above average effort.

vlunkr 5y ago
> Basically the general rule is if you desire above average money, you have to put in above average effort at some point in your career. My (probably cynical) take is that most SV devs are also 1x. You make the big bucks not just by being a 10x dev, but by some combination of going to the right schools, making the right connections, learning how to negotiate and when to look for new jobs, learning to jump through the big tech interview hoops etc. So yeah, you have to put in above average effort, but maybe not directly into improving your craft.
- gumby 5y ago
  > My (probably cynical) take is that most SV devs are also 1x. Not at all cynical and why not? That's basically my impression and I've been hiring people here for 30+ years. A team needs a mix of people with differing skills and interests. Even notice how "all star" games are so boring? no sabermetics used in picking those people. And in any company, 90+% of the effort is routine stuff, especially once you've launched. This applies to non-programmers too.
- Xeronate 5y ago
  Jumping through big tech interview hoops is the most correct part of your statement and it invalidates the idea that you ned to go to the right school or have the right connections. And for what it's worth, the average FAANG developer I've worked with has been much better than my colleagues at prior companies.
  - ratww 5y ago
    > And for what it's worth, the average FAANG developer I've worked with has been much better than my colleagues at prior companies. I worked at a FAANG and I'd agree with that: the people there were good. But there was a huge caveat: most of them were definitely doing what would be "1x work" in a non-FAANG jobs. FAANG is very good at hiring but not too good at using the people to their full potential.
__app_dev__ 5y ago
FAANG Software Engineer pay is not that great when compared to a Surgeon (or many other good jobs) for people who have been doing other good jobs for decades. How many Software Engineers do you who drive Ferraris? Probably not many, but for Surgeons, Sales People (at good companies) it's not a big deal. No other industry would anyone tolerate being told to study 4-8 hours a day for months for a chance to pass an interview. I realize I'm ranting but I've a Software Engineer with over 20 years experience and I've kind of lost interest being in an industry where the only thing that matters for an interview is how good I can cram leetcode, rather than what I've designed and built. Granted it would be hard for me to easily find something that pays more so I'm not quitting my day job (and now extra night job).

bumby 5y ago

>completely disconnecting is the mark of a professional. Slight nitpick, but this is the mark of a person with a vocation. A "professional" answers to a higher ethical calling. The name derives from "professing" an oath; for example, for a doctor to "do no harm" or an engineer to work in the public good. This can occur within a 9-5 window, but I would expect that, if needed, a professional would put their oath above clock hours if it was in conflict.

mlady 5y ago
I would argue the other way around. A "professional" gets paid for a job, full stop. A "vocation" derives from "to call", or someone's "calling", as in someone's purpose in life. Maybe our etymology is what sets us up for work-life imbalance :)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bumby 5y ago
  >A "professional" gets paid for a job, full stop Clergy was the first example where the term derived so I don't know if the roots of the word align with your definition. Granted, colloquial usage changes word meanings over time.