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> Whatever Agile was Has it changed? The Manifesto[1] is still there, unmodified, to provide thoughts on what you need to consider if you are going to run a so
by randomdata 5y ago
> Whatever Agile was
Has it changed? The Manifesto[1] is still there, unmodified, to provide thoughts on what you need to consider if you are going to run a software project without managers.
> Fuck user stories, fuck sprints, fuck Jira, and fuck product management
That does not sound like Aglie, especially given that you specifically call out managers, which are incongruent with Agile. The top-down organization where process flows down from management at the top to the developers at the bottom that you speak of is what is colloquially known as 'Waterfall'. This 'Waterfall' organization structure is what many believe the Manifesto was written to counteract, so it is interesting that you’re now calling it Agile.
[1] https://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html https://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html
- moron4hire 5y agoThat is not at all what waterfall means. And calling "Agile" as the same thing as whatever the Manifesto says is like calling any other religion whatever their holy book "says".
- randomdata 5y agoYou’re right in your second point, at least. Whatever you develop out of the thoughts of Agile won’t be called Agile. It is its own thing, with whatever new name you decide to give it.
- ajmurmann 5y agoYou can build your own processes around Agile principles. As long as you don't carve the processes in stone and revisit them you still can be Agile.
- randomdata 5y agoReading the principles of Agile does not make what you're doing Agile any more than reading the words of the bible makes what you're doing Bible, even if you took something useful out of that reading. Whatever it is you end up doing is what you decide to call it. Agile is more like a checklist of things to remember if you're going to operate without managers. Like, stay in touch with the business people, keep your work available for other developers to see, work with people who can be motivated without a manager hovering over them, etc. All obvious when you think about what role managers fill and what you need to do if they're gone, but still a decent reminder if you're serious about going down that road. It's not something you do, rather something you can think about if you've decided managers aren't the right fit for your project.
- ajmurmann 5y agoDid you mean to respond to someone else? I for one never said anything about reading Agile principles making anything Agile.
- spelunker 5y agoAnd lo, OP read The Manifesto, so as truly to understand Agile, and was therefore enlightened. - The Agile Prayer
- at_a_remove 5y agoThat is Agile of the noumenal realm. You will never meet it, just as you will never sit upon the Platonic ideal of a chair. Agile, if one deals with it, is Agile-in-the-wild. Compare the original teachings of a religious leader with what you find in the followers. Ah, but you could say, "That's not Agile's fault that people don't live up to it," but in a sense, it is, because Agile did not bother to anticipate that people would fall off of the path. Agile has no orthodoxy. Agile does not suggest punishment for bringing up deadlines. This has allowed people to pick-and-choose.
- randomdata 5y ago> "That's not Agile's fault that people don't live up to it," "Not living up to Agile" is one of its principals: "At regular intervals, the team reflects on how to become more effective, then tunes and adjusts its behaviour accordingly." That's not what we're talking about, though. > Agile did not bother to anticipate that people would fall off of the path. This isn't a case of falling off the path, it's a case of not even being on the same planet. Agile is written about the things you need to think about if developers don't have managers overseeing a project. The OP was talking about what managers are doing. They are at completely different ends of the spectrum. If you want to use a religious analogy, this is like there being a religious leader preaching about God and a group of people who believe God doesn't exist. Logically, you wouldn't lump them together. They would be seen as distinct groups with opposing thoughts. Exactly how we treat this situation in a religious context: For example, Christianity and atheism.
- bitwize 5y agoLook, when a job req goes out and it says "experience with Agile development methodologies" what it means is "experience doing Scrum with Jira". The Manifesto has sweet fuck all to do with what is meant when companies say Agile.
- randomdata 5y agoWhen a job requirement says "20 years experience in Rust", we know that businesses make things up. On HN, however, we can talk about reality, not what is made up for advertising purposes.
- bitwize 5y agoIt's not just advertising. Once you join the company, they tout how Agile they are to themselves while still doing Scrumfall. And if you protest on the grounds of Scrumfall not being in line with the Manifesto, you could be fired for not being Agile enough. So, in the corporate world, pretty much Agile==Scrumfall (and SAFe). Executive management wouldn't have seen any benefit to Agile otherwise. The only reason why companies adopt Agile is because of the fine-grained measurement and control promised by Agile consultants. Now get back to work on the stories planned for this sprint. You have sprint commitments to meet, and others in the release train are depending on those deliverables.
- lloydatkinson 5y agoAuthor here, I too have never seen it mean anything else either. Occasionally replace Jira with Azure DevOps at some places, but overall yes the sentiment is the same.
- ajmurmann 5y agoMuch of the usage of the term Agile now refers to Scrum which took Agile and made it into something digestible mb large corporations and business people and made it easily sellable and reproducible. It's a corruption of Agile. Even the term "sprint" makes me angry. We aren't sprinting! This isn't even a marathon! We are running forever and I want to run fast forever, not sprint and burn out after a short time.
- jahewson 5y agoAgile is the No True Scotsman of development methodologies. It claims not to be prescriptive but if you don’t get good outcomes, you’re doing it wrong! Meanwhile you should follow these 5 rules, but remember there are no rules.