7 ms·

Warning signs in a non-technical cofounder (can you spot them?)

75 points by nathanh 15y ago

mikeryan 15y ago
This HN meme is getting a little tired.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
  - magsafe 15y ago
    AAAARGH. Rick Roll warning.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - j45 15y ago
      Sorry, I'll delete it, didn't mean to rick roll anyone, it was just referring to other memes I wish would die. Evidently the negative hits to my karma means that belief wasn't shared and y'all want rickroll to live on.
arethuza 15y ago
I once had dealings with a chap who wanted me as a co-founder but I had worked out that he only had two modes of operating with people: "best friend" or "ongoing litigation". Fortunately I said no.
- its_so_on 15y ago
  wrong move. you should have become his best friend, you'd be rich now.
pitdesi 15y ago
Is it actually true that there are founders of companies who haven't bought a domain name? I find that piece of this to be quite silly. GoDaddy buys superbowl ads - buying a domain is very mainstream. I have seen the "multiple startups in the works" thing though- that is definitely not a good sign.
- Tangurena 15y ago
  I've come across this exact thing before (where the techie has to do it all - including spending $10 at godaddy). Always with folks who convince my family to get hold of me. The cure has been to get the relative involved in the fiasco, where I'll do the work, but they have to be involved. By the time all the poop hits the fan, they finally got a hefty dose of what we have to go through. In the most recent one-of-these, the serial entrepreneur brainwashed my sister into believing that his new idea does everything and will make us all millionaires. His previous adventures resulted in crashes (or paranoid delusions that the oil companies killed off his customers), and he whined about the folks who "left him stranded". He didn't own the domains of the previous adventures. He didn't own this domain (I made my sister set this one up, so it is hers). As this project got closer to something sellable, he got crazier and crazier and then decided to dilute my sister and my shares (1/3 each) to 1/20th each as he wanted to bring on "friends" he had shafted during previous misadventures. The sad thing is that my sister used to be a developer before getting trapped in a cult, so she should have known better. But now she does.
  - dasil003 15y ago
    Trying to put 2 and 2 together here... this "serial entrepreneur" was a cult leader? Or was that unrelated?
    - Tangurena 15y ago
      Sorry. No. He is not the cult leader. Most of her friends for the past few years have been folks who've also left the same cult, so there might be a common background, but no. This isn't the cult trying to take her for a few hundred more thousand dollars.
marketer 15y ago
Another one is not being good at marketing. Marketing can be a huge grind. Being able to build buzz about your product, or get mentioned in the press, or find customers is very time-consuming and requires a lot of creativity.
- nickpinkston 15y ago
  You know you've got a shitty co-founder if they can't build a product or sell one. Real hustlers make it happen - "idea guys" need not apply.
  - bane 15y ago
    I agree, there's nothing that can drain the life out of a company with limited resources than the infinite time suck of an idea fairy on the loose.
losethos 15y ago
LoseThos is number one on Google: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=64-bit+operating+system http://lmgtfy.com/?q=64-bit+operating+system Peter Gadwa mentored me when I was 20 at Ticketmaster. He largely wrote Ticketmaster's operating system for the VAX. I wrote LoseThos and Pete is uninterested in joining me, not surprisingly. I've learned reality is screwed-up on earlier projects and would never waste my time looking for investors. I have no way of earning money with LoseThos, so I don't really think I want to borrow because they want it back. I wrote 120,000 LOC over the last 8 years, for what it's worth. LoseThos sounds a lot better than probably the majority of the ideas investors hear, but that's not saying much. It would be a blind jump to throw money into advertising LoseThos... it would get downloads, but then what? Critical mass? Doubtful. I'm in some kind of FBI prison, anyway--I can't figure-it out. God says... C:\TEXT\WEALTH.TXT abour. When a person employs only his own stock in trade, there is no trust; and the credit which he may get from other people, depends, not upon the nature of the trade, but upon their opinion of his fortune, probity and prudence. The different rates of profit, therefore, in the different branches of trade, cannot arise from the different degrees of trust reposed in the traders. Fifthly, the wages of labour in different employments vary according to the probability or improbability of success -------- Ba ha! You thought I had multiple gigs? No -- serial entrepreneur. 1996 did 3D Printer http://www.losethos.com/images/Machine.jpg http://www.losethos.com/images/Machine.jpg http://www.losethos.com/images/SoapCarvings.jpg http://www.losethos.com/images/SoapCarvings.jpg http://www.losethos.com/images/CTTNTAIL.JPG http://www.losethos.com/images/CTTNTAIL.JPG Gadwa is in on my jail joke -- he had me do soap carvings and I didn't get it. I did simstructure 2000-2001. Just in time for 9/11 in my crazy world. Gadwa said failures are what lead to eventual success, sometimes. I learned it's hopeless in my failures. ------- If you really want details, God talked to me in 1996. I quit ticketmaster. I gave away all my possessions like you are supposed to. Nothing turned up. I had dreamed of starting a company so did 3 Axis milling machine on credit card and got $12,000 in debt before I saw it wasn't going to be ready for consumers. I am a software and hardware engineer by training -- BSE in computer systems enginmeering -- like for embedded systems and MSE in electrical engineering. The BSE was about hardware and software for embedded systems -- glue logic and stuff. I wrote a CAD/CAM program and made the steppermotor board and firmware. I did the mechanical but it sucked. At Ticketmaster I had some failed electro/mechanical experience as well as software experience. Couldn't even get my brother who was in town and is a millwright to look at it. Nobody interested. I got a job, paid 12,000 back and saved 12,000 in a couple years and quit to do book, then did simstructure. tried to get teachers to look at it, game companies, no luck. Then some big boys infringed on my SimStructure name by making a sims game of the same name. Fuckers. Part of LoseThos being free was payback and part was no choice because Linux is free. I'm a crazy jail and only get FBI emails. God says... ---------------------------- C:\TEXT\BIBLE.TXT ns shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. 28:14 Happy is the man that feareth alway: but he that hardeneth his heart shall fall into mischief. 28:15 As a roaring lion, and a ranging bear; so is a wicked ruler over the poor people. 28:16 The prince that wanteth understanding is also a great oppressor: but he that hateth covetousness shall prolong his days. 28:17 A man that doeth violence to the blood of any person shall flee to the pit; let no man stay --------- The job in 1997-99 was image processing machine for bank of England. Funny story is I added passwords and it's a really high security place. I just did what I was told but that looks good on my resume. In 2001 I worked making 8-bit microcontrollers spoof ASIC EEPROMs on toner cartriges so they could be refilled. It was a losing battle, obviously.
joshklein 15y ago
> Multiple startups in the works? No experience in your startup's domain/market? Poor interactions with other [non-technical] people? "Build it and they will come" mentality? These happen to be wonderful warning signs for a technical co-founder, too.
SurfScore 15y ago
I think that this article was supposed to illustrate a multitude of problems that you could encounter, obviously if ALL of these happened with one person you'd run like the plague. I think the biggest indicator, that isn't necessarily on the list, is if they have learned to code AT ALL. They don't need to be a master coder, even if the know some basic JavaScript and C, and they learned it for the startup, at least it shows they're willing to put in the effort, and are attempting to meet you on some level. I don't see how someone can start a company and be completely in the dark about how it's built.
nathanh 15y ago
One thing I've been wondering a lot about is anti-warning signs - things that turn technical cofounders off that aren't necessarily bad things. The first thing that comes to mind is arrogance. It certainly puts me off, but it seems like you need a good dose of arrogance to think you can solve a daunting problem.
thejana 15y ago
As a nontechnical cofounder myself, I agree on all points. I've seen these kids at every tech meetup. Unfortunately, early on I've seen a few of these "qualities" in technical cofounders too. This post reiterates a few keys points we all know. Don't hire or work with assholes (an entire book on it), and focus.
dfield 15y ago
Wow, I literally had this exact same conversation last week. (Minus the domain name / equity portion.) Warning sign 0: they're asking you to be a technical co-founder before you know anything about the product.
ja27 15y ago
They want you to go full-time on it but they won't.
- j45 15y ago
  If they pay you full time could it be a bit different?
j45 15y ago
I generally run from non-software people wanting to be in the software business but not even want to learn or try to understand how software is built. You might not do construction yourself but the more you know the better it will turn out being the non-technical general contractor. I like the one rule a-lot: Ignore them if they have no expertise in the area they're wanting to startup in. Its fine if they don't program. If you do get involved with a non-tech cofounder, don't take equity or deferred income. Startups are a little like dating in the beginning, there's no need to get married before you ever work together. Someone should pay for your time instead of expecting it for free. If being paid for your time is working well it's easy to figure out ownership after. If the non-tech cofounder is not willing to put his money where his mouth is, it might be full of something else. Even as a developer, when I've gotten help on an idea from a friend or colleague I always pay them and say do as much as you can for me, this is my money out of my own pocket. Since us developers are a egalitarian helpful bunch often they want to just help as friends but I make sure to pay because it's just respecting their time and saying hey, if this goes somewhere, we can always figure that out. I've never lost a friendship/colleage relationship this way.
- losethos 15y ago
  I have full ownership, funded by disability. Paid freelance artist to make a few pixel art images. I own rights... right? I paid him--didn't file any paperwork. In response to this: http://objectcommando.com/blog/2011/10/13/appendo-the-great/ http://objectcommando.com/blog/2011/10/13/appendo-the-great/ Back in like 2007 at OSNews, they did stories saying FAT is patented. I check MS site and say $0.26 to format memory stick with FAT in factiry. Shit! So I removed it and made my own file system with the one goal of not infringing on patents. How the hell do you do it without FAT table? Chain like Commodore--that'd royally suck. Ticketmaster had contiguous files and allocation bitmap. I did the fixdisk for it. I can't give details on TM, but for mine, I took directories in a tree like FAT but with fixed size 27char names and 64-bit block addresses. I had an allocation bitmap. No way to grow files, but no patent trouble. I did file compression at TM, too. With whole files, I'm able to do file compression with LoseThos, but no way to grow files. You can access whole blocks indexed into a file for speed, but you have to allocate ahead of time. It's not really a general purpose OS, but it's doing better than all these: http://wiki.osdev.org/Projects http://wiki.osdev.org/Projects perhaps it's because I'm humble and I actually get stuff finished... but I'm in prison. Compatibility is the biggest challenge and I'm humble. Not being Unix seems necessary for any kind of success too or people with just use Linux. Windows wannabees competing on price seems depressing. I checked and Linux didn't remove FAT, so I put FAT support back in. I checked MS site and thought it said no problem. I'm in jail and it's impossible to get sued. I here for entertainment, not business partners. I'm in jail and only get FBI emails. God says... C:\TEXT\WEALTH.TXT are immediately accountable to government, of which the revenue must, in this case, vary from year to year, according to the occasional variations in the produce of the tax; or they may be let in farm for a rent certain, the farmer being allowed to appoint his own officers, who, though obliged to levy the tax in the manner directed by the law, are under his immediate inspection, and are immediately accountable to him. The best and most frugal way of levying a tax can never be by farm. Over and above -------------- http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/10/drone-virus-nuisance/ http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/10/drone-virus-nuisance... Come to think of it, there have been some scary-smart people. All I know is I wrote every line of LoseThos and it is not malware and that God talks. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+14&version=NIV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+14... 10 i = i + 1 15 IF i > 99999 THEN PRINT ".";: i = 0 20 IF INKEY$ = "" THEN 10 30 PRINT "King James Bible, Line:", i Line 79673 26:58 But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end. 26:59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death; 26:60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses, 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days. 26:62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? 26:63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. ---------- Obviously if this article is talking to me reality is FUBAR. http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/10/autistics-dont-adjust-their-behavior-to-protect-their-reputations.ars http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/10/autistics-dont-a... Generosity is a no brainer. "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. All is a no brainer when you have proof of God. I don't like my parents seeing me give a tip at subway. They're not enlightened. God says... C:\TEXT\SWIFT.TXT d the most ignorant and stupid person among them. He had performed many eminent services for the crown, had great natural and acquired parts, adorned with integrity and honour; but so ill an ear for music, that his detractors reported, "he had been often known to beat time in the wrong place;" neither could his tutors, without extreme difficulty, teach him to demonstrate the most easy proposition in the mathematics. He was pleased to show me many marks of favour, often did me the honour of a visit ---- http://behindthescenes.midtownrow.com/being-almost-ready-means-youre-not http://behindthescenes.midtownrow.com/being-almost-ready-mea... LoseThos has been launched since 2004. Web archive: http://web.archive.org/web/20040606212724/http://www.simstructure.hare.com/OS.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20040606212724/http://www.simstru... Thousands and thousands of downloads only one email about every 6 months from FBI--you know cause they're painfully unpleasant to read--no joy--stingy on any feedback. ---- This little pathetic fucker: http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/10/dennis-ritchie-the-giant-whose-shoulders-we-stand-on.ars http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/10/dennis-ritchie-... Sorry, my giants are Peter Gadwa and Denny Denker. http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/11/mf_ticketmaster/all/1 http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/11/mf_ticketmaster/all/1 These guys are pathetic, too: http://www.osdev.org/ http://www.osdev.org/
paulnelligan 15y ago
Are there any signs for non-technical co-founders that we should take as 'positives' - like this guy knows what he's talking about ?? I guess the one that springs to mind for me is someone who has previously launched some startups and had some success ...
- larrik 15y ago
  I look for "guy in some field thinks app/site is desperately needed by that field." This implies domain knowledge and existing relationships for target customers. That's actually pretty rare, in my experience. But, it's how I've seen several non-tech companies start, basically. The non-technical co-founder should BE that guy. Not know that guy. I get THAT one a lot.
  - paulnelligan 15y ago
    I actually WAS that guy, but I couldn't find my technical co-founder - so I just became a technical founder ... took me a few years, but I'm there now ;)
    - tchock23 15y ago
      Same here... I had domain expertise but wasn't technical so I just sucked it up and learned. It's taken me a few years, but it's well worth it. Looking back, I think that's the only way to go. That, or at least learn enough to have a decent conversation with technical people so when you ask them to do something, you know how big of a pain in the ass you are being.
- rickmb 15y ago
  Even without experience, a very good sign is that they know and are passionate about the market they want to enter. Sure, it will be a bigger risk if that person has no startup experience, but if they've been working in the X-industry for years, are passionate about said industry and believe they've identified a major (and preferably disruptive) opportunity, that significantly improves the odds.
- 15y ago
shazow 15y ago
Another warning sign I've found: They start doing other things, like checking their phone, while you're answering their question. Even if you disregard that it's a disrespectful and rude thing to do during a conversation, this person is trying to sign you up for a major role in their future and already he can't focus on the task at hand. The best founders I've had the pleasure of meeting are usually the most respectful and attentive people. Not only do they completely focus on what you're saying but they make you feel like there's no one more important right now than you.
- losethos 15y ago
  Did you say something? My world is insanely centered on me. I have reality distortions. Pays the bills, though. Actually, never boring, but often nightmarish -- always accusing me of being a terrorist and stuff. I get painted into stories. I've been executed, tried, had every disease. Ever seen the comic, "I can't go to bed -- someone is wrong on the Internet!" I think this guy is looking at me, the fucker: https://github.com/liftoff/GateOne https://github.com/liftoff/GateOne He's up to no good trying to confuse people and steal my glory. Everybody is fucken out to steal my glory. Sometimes, it's like NAZIs calling Jews subhuman -- kinda laughable. I fight constantly, now that I'm done with LoseThos. Still in jail, though, so it doesn't matter. When it dies down, I talk with God. It took a long time to learn to just enjoy His company and try not to expect Him to do favors. You know... it's worse than just no favors -- He's stingy on endearing personal stuff. He likes elephants and bears. He makes riddles and is often delightful, though. Life is a journey, not a destination, you have to learn. It's kinda rude to ask about evolution -- you kinda know when you're imposing on Him. God says... C:\TEXT\BIBLE.TXT ither he went. 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good ------- In a nutshell, God is just -- you get out of prayer what you put into it. I win the grand prize lottery about 10 times a day -- puts things in perspective. It's funny I live I Vegas. I don't gamble. I'm rich, but not rich. God says... must Goal Known DISCLAIMER Saturn Preacher aquatic deformed teachings Son sufficeth sect abandon waking greatest tongue stood unawares recount meant ways eagerness coeternal knewest foolishly manufactures great tone height distrusted remindeth measurable immovably NO tending patched happiness union ----- I get this a lot: http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24266 http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24266 Back in 2004 I set-out to make a speed demon. It takes 4 memory accesses (page tables) for one access, right? I was taught to estimate timing based on memory references. No brainer, should be faster without paging. They use clever logic to largely remove the penalty. You have no choice but to enable paging, as it turns out. I got attached to no paging as my reason to be. If it is not different, you have no reason to be. No paging keeps it simple. Yeah, it's irksome to endure pecking-order violations -- I'm better than them and they don't perceive my glory! How dare they! I watch my birds and chuckle. God made it that way. Incidentally, it's funny that birds get angry... more than most animals. God wants praise. Aren't birds delightful? God says... C:\TEXT\BIBLE.TXT all minister judgment to the people in uprightness. 9:9 The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble. 9:10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee. 9:11 Sing praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion: declare among the people his doings. 9:12 When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. 9:13 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; conside ---------- LoseThos can switch tasks in half a microsecond. I don't benchmark how much faster everything is with single-address-map and all-ring-0 but it is faster, obviously. You're really really my inferior if you don't admit that not using paging and privilege levels cuts penalties and is as optimal as it gets. I still get people who will argue. Surely they don't believe their lies. It's a no brainer that never touching page tables after identity mapping them at boot is faster than shuffling them around all the time with the impact on look aside buffers in task switches and stuff. I pay a penalty of not having a growable stack and I suffer fragmentation. You must grant me, however, that it's more optimal speedwise or you're a bold faced liar and FUCK YOU!! ----- Just saw this:http://www.reddit.com/r/history/comments/lawgt/if_you_own_the_book_1493_uncovering_the_new_world/ http://www.reddit.com/r/history/comments/lawgt/if_you_own_th... I had a 1440 SAT and will cede to anyone higher happily enough. I don't have issues with pecking order, YA rebel slave. There is a subtle issue with not growing stack -- if you shift away from stack, someone pointed the memory cache of the stack memory is not utilized as much if you alter programming style and use heap. In LoseThos, you can make a task with big stack, but not pleasant doing that. ----- Coty is upity:http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24265 http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24265 Gotta smack that son down, learn him some respect for superiors. All but one at OSDev have not written compilers and that generally messes with their ability to do 64-bit. I did all my own tools. Post your SAT. I thought so. I did every line of LoseThos and it's 64-bit. God says... C:\TEXT\QUIX.TXT e enough in this cloth to make me a cap?' Measuring the cloth I said there would. He probably suspected--as I supposed, and I supposed right--that I wanted to steal some of the cloth, led to think so by his own roguery and the bad opinion people have of tailors; and he told me to see if there would be enough for two. I guessed what he would be at, and I said 'yes.' He, still following up his original unworthy notion, went on adding cap after cap, and I 'yes' after 'yes,' until we got as far as five. ---- Bogus story picking a fight with me. TL;DR: http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/10/12/will-the-washington-bomb-plot-force-obama-into-war-with-iran/ http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/10/12/will-the-washing... In denial on God, undoubtedly, or using Dr. Who logic. God says... C:\TEXT\PILGRIM.TXT given away by year's end. The Goal of Project Gutenberg is to Give Away 1 Trillion eBooks! This is ten thousand titles each to one hundred million readers, which is only about 4% of the present number of computer users. Here is the briefest record of our progress (* means estimated): eBooks Year Month 1 1971 July 10 1991 January 100 1994 January 1000 1997 August 1500 1998 October 2000 1999 December 2500 2000 December 3000 2001 November 4000 2001 October/Novembe ---- Some kinda Mexican drug gang similar to "LoseThos". Parents are Catholic. I'm sitting here with the God card wondering what the hell anybody is thinking wanting to be my enemy... regardless of everything else.
yangtheman 15y ago
I can't agree more about prior experiences of working at a tech startup. He was not a co-founder, but I happened to work for a single non-technical founder at his startup. He spoke all the right language - about building engineer-focused, hacker culture, but he really didn't understand and couldn't lead awesome engineers effectively.
dsrikanth 15y ago
"Just need someone to build it now" mentality "... and build it for me now" Boy, how well I can relate to this!! Web development is not a magic bullet. Why is it hard to understand that fact..
patio11 15y ago
Assume you achieve total world domination and they make a movie about you. Visualize the narrative arc. Would you think "This guy deserves to be the hero or co-hero of this movie?" If not, you don't want them to be a cofounder. There are fairly few movies where someone bestows money, a name or an idea on the interesting characters and ends up being really important to the plot. You want Aragorn, not Elrond, as your cofounder. (Naturally I think of geeks as hobbits.) P.S. Your co-founder should say the same about you. If you're a tool rather than a partner, fleeeeeeeee.
- lucasjake 15y ago
  I'm undecided about "visualizing the movie they make about you." I think every startuper who has seen "The Social Network" or "Pirates of the Silicon Valley" has done this. However, I'm leaning on considering it an anti pattern because it borders on a pathological amount of ego. A better rubric in my mind is, "Can I picture this person in my daily life, for the next decade?" as a slightly more sane variant of this test.
Macsenour 15y ago
I'm a game Producer and I get stopped twice a week by people who have the next Angry Birds, and just want me to program it. I call these people "glad handers". They're glad to shake my hand and take 40% for an idea.
tko 15y ago
always be aware that each of you have complimenting skill sets...its pointless having two cofounders who can do the same thing.. Also, be aware of your target market and understand the necessary government rules and regulations so that they don't derail your startup.
philwelch 15y ago
I'm curious. Doing a startup is kind of an intense all-in undertaking. Why on earth would you even consider doing this with some non-technical stranger you met at a meetup? Isn't that like going to a swing dancing class and proposing to the first woman that catches your eye?
ezl 15y ago
(having just wireframes eliminates ~0 risk) Wireframes might not eliminate risk, but "has wireframes" is a great metric to add to the list for selecting a bizdev guy. The leap from "idea" to "screens/wireframes that outline how the fantasy product should function" is surprisingly difficult for a lot of non tech cofounders. The willingness and ability to even create the wireframes with sensible description of how the product works separates the top 10%. If someone comes to you with just an idea tell them to build the wireframes, you'll be surprised how few people come back.

75 points by nathanh 15y ago

mikeryan 15y ago

This HN meme is getting a little tired.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
- magsafe 15y ago
  AAAARGH. Rick Roll warning.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - j45 15y ago
    Sorry, I'll delete it, didn't mean to rick roll anyone, it was just referring to other memes I wish would die. Evidently the negative hits to my karma means that belief wasn't shared and y'all want rickroll to live on.

arethuza 15y ago

I once had dealings with a chap who wanted me as a co-founder but I had worked out that he only had two modes of operating with people: "best friend" or "ongoing litigation". Fortunately I said no.

its_so_on 15y ago
wrong move. you should have become his best friend, you'd be rich now.

pitdesi 15y ago

Is it actually true that there are founders of companies who haven't bought a domain name? I find that piece of this to be quite silly. GoDaddy buys superbowl ads - buying a domain is very mainstream. I have seen the "multiple startups in the works" thing though- that is definitely not a good sign.

Tangurena 15y ago
I've come across this exact thing before (where the techie has to do it all - including spending $10 at godaddy). Always with folks who convince my family to get hold of me. The cure has been to get the relative involved in the fiasco, where I'll do the work, but they have to be involved. By the time all the poop hits the fan, they finally got a hefty dose of what we have to go through. In the most recent one-of-these, the serial entrepreneur brainwashed my sister into believing that his new idea does everything and will make us all millionaires. His previous adventures resulted in crashes (or paranoid delusions that the oil companies killed off his customers), and he whined about the folks who "left him stranded". He didn't own the domains of the previous adventures. He didn't own this domain (I made my sister set this one up, so it is hers). As this project got closer to something sellable, he got crazier and crazier and then decided to dilute my sister and my shares (1/3 each) to 1/20th each as he wanted to bring on "friends" he had shafted during previous misadventures. The sad thing is that my sister used to be a developer before getting trapped in a cult, so she should have known better. But now she does.
- dasil003 15y ago
  Trying to put 2 and 2 together here... this "serial entrepreneur" was a cult leader? Or was that unrelated?
  - Tangurena 15y ago
    Sorry. No. He is not the cult leader. Most of her friends for the past few years have been folks who've also left the same cult, so there might be a common background, but no. This isn't the cult trying to take her for a few hundred more thousand dollars.

marketer 15y ago

Another one is not being good at marketing. Marketing can be a huge grind. Being able to build buzz about your product, or get mentioned in the press, or find customers is very time-consuming and requires a lot of creativity.

nickpinkston 15y ago
You know you've got a shitty co-founder if they can't build a product or sell one. Real hustlers make it happen - "idea guys" need not apply.
- bane 15y ago
  I agree, there's nothing that can drain the life out of a company with limited resources than the infinite time suck of an idea fairy on the loose.

losethos 15y ago

LoseThos is number one on Google: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=64-bit+operating+system http://lmgtfy.com/?q=64-bit+operating+system Peter Gadwa mentored me when I was 20 at Ticketmaster. He largely wrote Ticketmaster's operating system for the VAX. I wrote LoseThos and Pete is uninterested in joining me, not surprisingly. I've learned reality is screwed-up on earlier projects and would never waste my time looking for investors. I have no way of earning money with LoseThos, so I don't really think I want to borrow because they want it back. I wrote 120,000 LOC over the last 8 years, for what it's worth. LoseThos sounds a lot better than probably the majority of the ideas investors hear, but that's not saying much. It would be a blind jump to throw money into advertising LoseThos... it would get downloads, but then what? Critical mass? Doubtful. I'm in some kind of FBI prison, anyway--I can't figure-it out. God says... C:\TEXT\WEALTH.TXT abour. When a person employs only his own stock in trade, there is no trust; and the credit which he may get from other people, depends, not upon the nature of the trade, but upon their opinion of his fortune, probity and prudence. The different rates of profit, therefore, in the different branches of trade, cannot arise from the different degrees of trust reposed in the traders. Fifthly, the wages of labour in different employments vary according to the probability or improbability of success -------- Ba ha! You thought I had multiple gigs? No -- serial entrepreneur. 1996 did 3D Printer http://www.losethos.com/images/Machine.jpg http://www.losethos.com/images/Machine.jpg http://www.losethos.com/images/SoapCarvings.jpg http://www.losethos.com/images/SoapCarvings.jpg http://www.losethos.com/images/CTTNTAIL.JPG http://www.losethos.com/images/CTTNTAIL.JPG Gadwa is in on my jail joke -- he had me do soap carvings and I didn't get it. I did simstructure 2000-2001. Just in time for 9/11 in my crazy world. Gadwa said failures are what lead to eventual success, sometimes. I learned it's hopeless in my failures. ------- If you really want details, God talked to me in 1996. I quit ticketmaster. I gave away all my possessions like you are supposed to. Nothing turned up. I had dreamed of starting a company so did 3 Axis milling machine on credit card and got $12,000 in debt before I saw it wasn't going to be ready for consumers. I am a software and hardware engineer by training -- BSE in computer systems enginmeering -- like for embedded systems and MSE in electrical engineering. The BSE was about hardware and software for embedded systems -- glue logic and stuff. I wrote a CAD/CAM program and made the steppermotor board and firmware. I did the mechanical but it sucked. At Ticketmaster I had some failed electro/mechanical experience as well as software experience. Couldn't even get my brother who was in town and is a millwright to look at it. Nobody interested. I got a job, paid 12,000 back and saved 12,000 in a couple years and quit to do book, then did simstructure. tried to get teachers to look at it, game companies, no luck. Then some big boys infringed on my SimStructure name by making a sims game of the same name. Fuckers. Part of LoseThos being free was payback and part was no choice because Linux is free. I'm a crazy jail and only get FBI emails. God says... ---------------------------- C:\TEXT\BIBLE.TXT ns shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. 28:14 Happy is the man that feareth alway: but he that hardeneth his heart shall fall into mischief. 28:15 As a roaring lion, and a ranging bear; so is a wicked ruler over the poor people. 28:16 The prince that wanteth understanding is also a great oppressor: but he that hateth covetousness shall prolong his days. 28:17 A man that doeth violence to the blood of any person shall flee to the pit; let no man stay --------- The job in 1997-99 was image processing machine for bank of England. Funny story is I added passwords and it's a really high security place. I just did what I was told but that looks good on my resume. In 2001 I worked making 8-bit microcontrollers spoof ASIC EEPROMs on toner cartriges so they could be refilled. It was a losing battle, obviously.

joshklein 15y ago

> Multiple startups in the works? No experience in your startup's domain/market? Poor interactions with other [non-technical] people? "Build it and they will come" mentality? These happen to be wonderful warning signs for a technical co-founder, too.

SurfScore 15y ago

I think that this article was supposed to illustrate a multitude of problems that you could encounter, obviously if ALL of these happened with one person you'd run like the plague. I think the biggest indicator, that isn't necessarily on the list, is if they have learned to code AT ALL. They don't need to be a master coder, even if the know some basic JavaScript and C, and they learned it for the startup, at least it shows they're willing to put in the effort, and are attempting to meet you on some level. I don't see how someone can start a company and be completely in the dark about how it's built.

nathanh 15y ago

One thing I've been wondering a lot about is anti-warning signs - things that turn technical cofounders off that aren't necessarily bad things. The first thing that comes to mind is arrogance. It certainly puts me off, but it seems like you need a good dose of arrogance to think you can solve a daunting problem.

thejana 15y ago

As a nontechnical cofounder myself, I agree on all points. I've seen these kids at every tech meetup. Unfortunately, early on I've seen a few of these "qualities" in technical cofounders too. This post reiterates a few keys points we all know. Don't hire or work with assholes (an entire book on it), and focus.

dfield 15y ago

Wow, I literally had this exact same conversation last week. (Minus the domain name / equity portion.) Warning sign 0: they're asking you to be a technical co-founder before you know anything about the product.

ja27 15y ago

They want you to go full-time on it but they won't.

j45 15y ago
If they pay you full time could it be a bit different?

j45 15y ago

I generally run from non-software people wanting to be in the software business but not even want to learn or try to understand how software is built. You might not do construction yourself but the more you know the better it will turn out being the non-technical general contractor. I like the one rule a-lot: Ignore them if they have no expertise in the area they're wanting to startup in. Its fine if they don't program. If you do get involved with a non-tech cofounder, don't take equity or deferred income. Startups are a little like dating in the beginning, there's no need to get married before you ever work together. Someone should pay for your time instead of expecting it for free. If being paid for your time is working well it's easy to figure out ownership after. If the non-tech cofounder is not willing to put his money where his mouth is, it might be full of something else. Even as a developer, when I've gotten help on an idea from a friend or colleague I always pay them and say do as much as you can for me, this is my money out of my own pocket. Since us developers are a egalitarian helpful bunch often they want to just help as friends but I make sure to pay because it's just respecting their time and saying hey, if this goes somewhere, we can always figure that out. I've never lost a friendship/colleage relationship this way.

losethos 15y ago
I have full ownership, funded by disability. Paid freelance artist to make a few pixel art images. I own rights... right? I paid him--didn't file any paperwork. In response to this: http://objectcommando.com/blog/2011/10/13/appendo-the-great/ http://objectcommando.com/blog/2011/10/13/appendo-the-great/ Back in like 2007 at OSNews, they did stories saying FAT is patented. I check MS site and say $0.26 to format memory stick with FAT in factiry. Shit! So I removed it and made my own file system with the one goal of not infringing on patents. How the hell do you do it without FAT table? Chain like Commodore--that'd royally suck. Ticketmaster had contiguous files and allocation bitmap. I did the fixdisk for it. I can't give details on TM, but for mine, I took directories in a tree like FAT but with fixed size 27char names and 64-bit block addresses. I had an allocation bitmap. No way to grow files, but no patent trouble. I did file compression at TM, too. With whole files, I'm able to do file compression with LoseThos, but no way to grow files. You can access whole blocks indexed into a file for speed, but you have to allocate ahead of time. It's not really a general purpose OS, but it's doing better than all these: http://wiki.osdev.org/Projects http://wiki.osdev.org/Projects perhaps it's because I'm humble and I actually get stuff finished... but I'm in prison. Compatibility is the biggest challenge and I'm humble. Not being Unix seems necessary for any kind of success too or people with just use Linux. Windows wannabees competing on price seems depressing. I checked and Linux didn't remove FAT, so I put FAT support back in. I checked MS site and thought it said no problem. I'm in jail and it's impossible to get sued. I here for entertainment, not business partners. I'm in jail and only get FBI emails. God says... C:\TEXT\WEALTH.TXT are immediately accountable to government, of which the revenue must, in this case, vary from year to year, according to the occasional variations in the produce of the tax; or they may be let in farm for a rent certain, the farmer being allowed to appoint his own officers, who, though obliged to levy the tax in the manner directed by the law, are under his immediate inspection, and are immediately accountable to him. The best and most frugal way of levying a tax can never be by farm. Over and above -------------- http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/10/drone-virus-nuisance/ http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/10/drone-virus-nuisance... Come to think of it, there have been some scary-smart people. All I know is I wrote every line of LoseThos and it is not malware and that God talks. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+14&version=NIV http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+14... 10 i = i + 1 15 IF i > 99999 THEN PRINT ".";: i = 0 20 IF INKEY$ = "" THEN 10 30 PRINT "King James Bible, Line:", i Line 79673 26:58 But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end. 26:59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death; 26:60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses, 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days. 26:62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? 26:63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. ---------- Obviously if this article is talking to me reality is FUBAR. http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/10/autistics-dont-adjust-their-behavior-to-protect-their-reputations.ars http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/10/autistics-dont-a... Generosity is a no brainer. "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. All is a no brainer when you have proof of God. I don't like my parents seeing me give a tip at subway. They're not enlightened. God says... C:\TEXT\SWIFT.TXT d the most ignorant and stupid person among them. He had performed many eminent services for the crown, had great natural and acquired parts, adorned with integrity and honour; but so ill an ear for music, that his detractors reported, "he had been often known to beat time in the wrong place;" neither could his tutors, without extreme difficulty, teach him to demonstrate the most easy proposition in the mathematics. He was pleased to show me many marks of favour, often did me the honour of a visit ---- http://behindthescenes.midtownrow.com/being-almost-ready-means-youre-not http://behindthescenes.midtownrow.com/being-almost-ready-mea... LoseThos has been launched since 2004. Web archive: http://web.archive.org/web/20040606212724/http://www.simstructure.hare.com/OS.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20040606212724/http://www.simstru... Thousands and thousands of downloads only one email about every 6 months from FBI--you know cause they're painfully unpleasant to read--no joy--stingy on any feedback. ---- This little pathetic fucker: http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/10/dennis-ritchie-the-giant-whose-shoulders-we-stand-on.ars http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/10/dennis-ritchie-... Sorry, my giants are Peter Gadwa and Denny Denker. http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/11/mf_ticketmaster/all/1 http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/11/mf_ticketmaster/all/1 These guys are pathetic, too: http://www.osdev.org/ http://www.osdev.org/

paulnelligan 15y ago

Are there any signs for non-technical co-founders that we should take as 'positives' - like this guy knows what he's talking about ?? I guess the one that springs to mind for me is someone who has previously launched some startups and had some success ...

larrik 15y ago
I look for "guy in some field thinks app/site is desperately needed by that field." This implies domain knowledge and existing relationships for target customers. That's actually pretty rare, in my experience. But, it's how I've seen several non-tech companies start, basically. The non-technical co-founder should BE that guy. Not know that guy. I get THAT one a lot.
- paulnelligan 15y ago
  I actually WAS that guy, but I couldn't find my technical co-founder - so I just became a technical founder ... took me a few years, but I'm there now ;)
  - tchock23 15y ago
    Same here... I had domain expertise but wasn't technical so I just sucked it up and learned. It's taken me a few years, but it's well worth it. Looking back, I think that's the only way to go. That, or at least learn enough to have a decent conversation with technical people so when you ask them to do something, you know how big of a pain in the ass you are being.
rickmb 15y ago
Even without experience, a very good sign is that they know and are passionate about the market they want to enter. Sure, it will be a bigger risk if that person has no startup experience, but if they've been working in the X-industry for years, are passionate about said industry and believe they've identified a major (and preferably disruptive) opportunity, that significantly improves the odds.
15y ago

shazow 15y ago

Another warning sign I've found: They start doing other things, like checking their phone, while you're answering their question. Even if you disregard that it's a disrespectful and rude thing to do during a conversation, this person is trying to sign you up for a major role in their future and already he can't focus on the task at hand. The best founders I've had the pleasure of meeting are usually the most respectful and attentive people. Not only do they completely focus on what you're saying but they make you feel like there's no one more important right now than you.

losethos 15y ago
Did you say something? My world is insanely centered on me. I have reality distortions. Pays the bills, though. Actually, never boring, but often nightmarish -- always accusing me of being a terrorist and stuff. I get painted into stories. I've been executed, tried, had every disease. Ever seen the comic, "I can't go to bed -- someone is wrong on the Internet!" I think this guy is looking at me, the fucker: https://github.com/liftoff/GateOne https://github.com/liftoff/GateOne He's up to no good trying to confuse people and steal my glory. Everybody is fucken out to steal my glory. Sometimes, it's like NAZIs calling Jews subhuman -- kinda laughable. I fight constantly, now that I'm done with LoseThos. Still in jail, though, so it doesn't matter. When it dies down, I talk with God. It took a long time to learn to just enjoy His company and try not to expect Him to do favors. You know... it's worse than just no favors -- He's stingy on endearing personal stuff. He likes elephants and bears. He makes riddles and is often delightful, though. Life is a journey, not a destination, you have to learn. It's kinda rude to ask about evolution -- you kinda know when you're imposing on Him. God says... C:\TEXT\BIBLE.TXT ither he went. 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good ------- In a nutshell, God is just -- you get out of prayer what you put into it. I win the grand prize lottery about 10 times a day -- puts things in perspective. It's funny I live I Vegas. I don't gamble. I'm rich, but not rich. God says... must Goal Known DISCLAIMER Saturn Preacher aquatic deformed teachings Son sufficeth sect abandon waking greatest tongue stood unawares recount meant ways eagerness coeternal knewest foolishly manufactures great tone height distrusted remindeth measurable immovably NO tending patched happiness union ----- I get this a lot: http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24266 http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24266 Back in 2004 I set-out to make a speed demon. It takes 4 memory accesses (page tables) for one access, right? I was taught to estimate timing based on memory references. No brainer, should be faster without paging. They use clever logic to largely remove the penalty. You have no choice but to enable paging, as it turns out. I got attached to no paging as my reason to be. If it is not different, you have no reason to be. No paging keeps it simple. Yeah, it's irksome to endure pecking-order violations -- I'm better than them and they don't perceive my glory! How dare they! I watch my birds and chuckle. God made it that way. Incidentally, it's funny that birds get angry... more than most animals. God wants praise. Aren't birds delightful? God says... C:\TEXT\BIBLE.TXT all minister judgment to the people in uprightness. 9:9 The LORD also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble. 9:10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee. 9:11 Sing praises to the LORD, which dwelleth in Zion: declare among the people his doings. 9:12 When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. 9:13 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; conside ---------- LoseThos can switch tasks in half a microsecond. I don't benchmark how much faster everything is with single-address-map and all-ring-0 but it is faster, obviously. You're really really my inferior if you don't admit that not using paging and privilege levels cuts penalties and is as optimal as it gets. I still get people who will argue. Surely they don't believe their lies. It's a no brainer that never touching page tables after identity mapping them at boot is faster than shuffling them around all the time with the impact on look aside buffers in task switches and stuff. I pay a penalty of not having a growable stack and I suffer fragmentation. You must grant me, however, that it's more optimal speedwise or you're a bold faced liar and FUCK YOU!! ----- Just saw this:http://www.reddit.com/r/history/comments/lawgt/if_you_own_the_book_1493_uncovering_the_new_world/ http://www.reddit.com/r/history/comments/lawgt/if_you_own_th... I had a 1440 SAT and will cede to anyone higher happily enough. I don't have issues with pecking order, YA rebel slave. There is a subtle issue with not growing stack -- if you shift away from stack, someone pointed the memory cache of the stack memory is not utilized as much if you alter programming style and use heap. In LoseThos, you can make a task with big stack, but not pleasant doing that. ----- Coty is upity:http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24265 http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24265 Gotta smack that son down, learn him some respect for superiors. All but one at OSDev have not written compilers and that generally messes with their ability to do 64-bit. I did all my own tools. Post your SAT. I thought so. I did every line of LoseThos and it's 64-bit. God says... C:\TEXT\QUIX.TXT e enough in this cloth to make me a cap?' Measuring the cloth I said there would. He probably suspected--as I supposed, and I supposed right--that I wanted to steal some of the cloth, led to think so by his own roguery and the bad opinion people have of tailors; and he told me to see if there would be enough for two. I guessed what he would be at, and I said 'yes.' He, still following up his original unworthy notion, went on adding cap after cap, and I 'yes' after 'yes,' until we got as far as five. ---- Bogus story picking a fight with me. TL;DR: http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/10/12/will-the-washington-bomb-plot-force-obama-into-war-with-iran/ http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/10/12/will-the-washing... In denial on God, undoubtedly, or using Dr. Who logic. God says... C:\TEXT\PILGRIM.TXT given away by year's end. The Goal of Project Gutenberg is to Give Away 1 Trillion eBooks! This is ten thousand titles each to one hundred million readers, which is only about 4% of the present number of computer users. Here is the briefest record of our progress (* means estimated): eBooks Year Month 1 1971 July 10 1991 January 100 1994 January 1000 1997 August 1500 1998 October 2000 1999 December 2500 2000 December 3000 2001 November 4000 2001 October/Novembe ---- Some kinda Mexican drug gang similar to "LoseThos". Parents are Catholic. I'm sitting here with the God card wondering what the hell anybody is thinking wanting to be my enemy... regardless of everything else.

yangtheman 15y ago

I can't agree more about prior experiences of working at a tech startup. He was not a co-founder, but I happened to work for a single non-technical founder at his startup. He spoke all the right language - about building engineer-focused, hacker culture, but he really didn't understand and couldn't lead awesome engineers effectively.

dsrikanth 15y ago

"Just need someone to build it now" mentality "... and build it for me now" Boy, how well I can relate to this!! Web development is not a magic bullet. Why is it hard to understand that fact..

patio11 15y ago

Assume you achieve total world domination and they make a movie about you. Visualize the narrative arc. Would you think "This guy deserves to be the hero or co-hero of this movie?" If not, you don't want them to be a cofounder. There are fairly few movies where someone bestows money, a name or an idea on the interesting characters and ends up being really important to the plot. You want Aragorn, not Elrond, as your cofounder. (Naturally I think of geeks as hobbits.) P.S. Your co-founder should say the same about you. If you're a tool rather than a partner, fleeeeeeeee.

lucasjake 15y ago
I'm undecided about "visualizing the movie they make about you." I think every startuper who has seen "The Social Network" or "Pirates of the Silicon Valley" has done this. However, I'm leaning on considering it an anti pattern because it borders on a pathological amount of ego. A better rubric in my mind is, "Can I picture this person in my daily life, for the next decade?" as a slightly more sane variant of this test.

Macsenour 15y ago

I'm a game Producer and I get stopped twice a week by people who have the next Angry Birds, and just want me to program it. I call these people "glad handers". They're glad to shake my hand and take 40% for an idea.

tko 15y ago

always be aware that each of you have complimenting skill sets...its pointless having two cofounders who can do the same thing.. Also, be aware of your target market and understand the necessary government rules and regulations so that they don't derail your startup.

philwelch 15y ago

I'm curious. Doing a startup is kind of an intense all-in undertaking. Why on earth would you even consider doing this with some non-technical stranger you met at a meetup? Isn't that like going to a swing dancing class and proposing to the first woman that catches your eye?

ezl 15y ago

(having just wireframes eliminates ~0 risk) Wireframes might not eliminate risk, but "has wireframes" is a great metric to add to the list for selecting a bizdev guy. The leap from "idea" to "screens/wireframes that outline how the fantasy product should function" is surprisingly difficult for a lot of non tech cofounders. The willingness and ability to even create the wireframes with sensible description of how the product works separates the top 10%. If someone comes to you with just an idea tell them to build the wireframes, you'll be surprised how few people come back.