5 ms·

A lot of different stuff: The language wars largely ended, with the more popular languages folding in a lot of the more (at the time) esoteric features. DSLs

A lot of different stuff: The language wars largely ended, with the more popular languages folding in a lot of the more (at the time) esoteric features. DSLs have fallen out of favor. Javascript took over for a bit (although I believe that is receding.) LtU was a great place for about a decade when the internet was getting going, moving language discussions out of the mailing lists, which were pretty isolated, and into a general forum. It was a great place for a while, and I anticipate it might be a great one again if DSLs resurge in popularity. Speaking of which, here is mine :) https://hyperscript.org https://hyperscript.org

dragonwriter 5y ago
> The language wars largely ended, with the more popular languages folding in a lot of the more (at the time) esoteric features. > DSLs have fallen out of favor. External DSLs have largely fallen out of favor, in a large part because the “esoteric features” that have been widely adopted include those that enable very expressive internal DSLs.
- PaulHoule 5y ago
  It is no fun writing external DSLs when you're stuck with your grandfather's parser generator. If we had grammars that were really extensible (add "unless(X)" equivalent to "if(!X)" in Java's grammar with a few lines of code) and composable (stick a SQL statement into a Java program with just a few lines of code if you have the SQL and Java grammars) and reversible (turn the AST tree back to source code) it would be a lot more fun writing external DSLs. Every so often a revolution gets promised, like PEG parsers for Python, but then people get worried about how fast the parser is again and it isn't like Heinlein's Moon is a Harsh Mistress but more like Haldeman's Worlds (as Pete Townsend puts it "We won't get fooled again".) If parsers were easier to use people might use them 10x as often as they do today.
  - scns 5y ago
    Have you tried writing a DSL in Kotlin?
    - PaulHoule 5y ago
      Internal or external? I think Java is just fine for internal DSLs, see https://www.jooq.org/ https://www.jooq.org/ jooq embeds a Turing complete programming language because it supports Procedural SQL. I was also hacking on this project https://github.com/paulhoule/ferocity/ https://github.com/paulhoule/ferocity/ which was about making Java homoiconic. Namely in ferocity you can write Expression<String> literal = of("Hello World"); Expression<byte[]> expression = getBytes(literal); and then expression.asSource() = '"Hello World".getBytes()' expression.evaluate() = {72, 101, 108, 108, 111, 32, 87, 111, 114, 108, 100} the evaluation is done with the primitive interpreter strategy of evaluating all of the arguments of the function then calling the function, ... I got far enough on that project that I discovered a bunch of things like the expression language has extensions over the real Java language pretty naturally for instance if you have a quote function like the quote in LISP you can write programs in the extended language to process syntactic macros. I convinced myself that the idea is sound and got started on bootstrapping it by building a partial implementation (ferocity0) and code generator to make stubs out of the standard library plus a persistent collections library because that is pretty helpful for building the DSL, then write ferocity1 in ferocity0 wherever it could eliminate boilerplate (like the 8 primitive types.)
  - spinningslate 5y ago
    >It is no fun writing external DSLs when you're stuck with your grandfather's parser generator. Agreed. I've tried various different approaches to building external DSLs, from fully hand-written to language workbenches like xtext [0] and spoofax [1]. I always end up back at hand written, often because of error handling. Creating meaningfully helpful error handling with parser generators always seems hard. >If we had grammars that were really extensible Grammar composition is hard. Canonical BNF is top down, meaning alternate clauses are complete and closed in most parser generators. One notable exception is SF3[2] (part of Spoofax). It doesn't require alternate clauses to be grouped and so can support composable languages. It's the most flexible parser-generator I've used, and the syntax is pretty nice too. Fun fact: SDF3 and Spoofax come from Eelco Visser's group at TU-Delft - the same group that originated Scope Graphs, the basis for Github's Stack Graphs [3]. [0] http://www.eclipse.org/Xtext/ http://www.eclipse.org/Xtext/ [1] https://www.spoofax.dev/ https://www.spoofax.dev/ [2] https://eelcovisser.org/publications/2020/AmorimV20.pdf https://eelcovisser.org/publications/2020/AmorimV20.pdf [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29500602 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29500602
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      > Grammar composition is hard. Composing grammars may not be possible, but it's easy to define a new grammar that provides the composition of two other grammars along with boilerplate that serves the purpose of determining whether you're in a "grammar A" context or a "grammar B" context. You just need tokens that aren't valid in grammar A or grammar B. No statement in such a grammar would be valid in either subgrammar, because of the boilerplate, but they would all be trivially reducible to valid statements in the appropriate subgrammar.
      - PaulHoule 5y ago
        It drives people nuts but I say there are many characters in Unicode https://unicode-table.com/en/sets/quotation-marks/ https://unicode-table.com/en/sets/quotation-marks/ if you need a new kind of quote, so you could write Integer index = 77; Statement s = « SELECT COUNT(*) FROM that WHERE x = @index »; People ask me "How do you type those on the keyboard?" and I say, "I don't type them on the keyboard, I cut and paste them." I use >128 codepoints all the time and mostly I don't need to because autocomplete works with them. No reason you can't write out.println(√(41.0))
  - moonchild 5y ago
    Raku has an extensible grammar supporting all the things you mention.
xhrpost 5y ago
I'm not familiar with the OP content but curious about DSLs in web dev. Is there a whole ecosystem of these that I simply didn't know about? Only one that comes to mind is CoffeeScript but that feels long gone at this point. Going to read about your Hyperscript which sounds interesting
- evilduck 5y ago
  JSX seems like a pretty common and significant DSL used in JS.
- AlchemistCamp 5y ago
  Templating DSLs are extremely common—JSX, ERB, HEEX, etc. So are router DSLs as you'll see in Rails, Phoenix and other frameworks. In Elixir, the Ecto query DSL is a pretty big deal as well.
shadowfox 5y ago
This seems like a bit of a strange take to me. LTU was hardly about DSLs or even particular languages, though of course that came up on and off. It was fundamentally a place with discussions on PL theory and related stuff, with the front page being predominantly about current papers. So, the success of Javascript/drop in DSL popularity seem like a strange reason for LTU to stop being useful.
- recursivedoubts 5y ago
  Perhaps it is a strange take, but LtU seemed a lot more relevant to programming in general earlier in the millenia when the programming language question was less settled. From what I remember the really hot discussions were around things like closures, generic programming, dynamic typing, etc. Lots of new and potentially relevant languages were emerging so there was just more tumult in general, and a lot more interest in language features amongst generalists. Perhaps my biases though: maybe there was some other reason why LtU ended up getting a lot quieter.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
MichaelMoser123 5y ago
> The language wars largely ended, with the more popular languages folding in a lot of the more (at the time) esoteric features. And the popular languages still don't have sensible macros, with the exception of Rust... Once upon a time they had very complicated macro facilities: not just Lisp, the assembly of the S390 had one, etc. etc. Then came C with its incomplete #define thing, and the whole concept came into disrepute...

dragonwriter 5y ago

> The language wars largely ended, with the more popular languages folding in a lot of the more (at the time) esoteric features. > DSLs have fallen out of favor. External DSLs have largely fallen out of favor, in a large part because the “esoteric features” that have been widely adopted include those that enable very expressive internal DSLs.

PaulHoule 5y ago
It is no fun writing external DSLs when you're stuck with your grandfather's parser generator. If we had grammars that were really extensible (add "unless(X)" equivalent to "if(!X)" in Java's grammar with a few lines of code) and composable (stick a SQL statement into a Java program with just a few lines of code if you have the SQL and Java grammars) and reversible (turn the AST tree back to source code) it would be a lot more fun writing external DSLs. Every so often a revolution gets promised, like PEG parsers for Python, but then people get worried about how fast the parser is again and it isn't like Heinlein's Moon is a Harsh Mistress but more like Haldeman's Worlds (as Pete Townsend puts it "We won't get fooled again".) If parsers were easier to use people might use them 10x as often as they do today.
- scns 5y ago
  Have you tried writing a DSL in Kotlin?
  - PaulHoule 5y ago
    Internal or external? I think Java is just fine for internal DSLs, see https://www.jooq.org/ https://www.jooq.org/ jooq embeds a Turing complete programming language because it supports Procedural SQL. I was also hacking on this project https://github.com/paulhoule/ferocity/ https://github.com/paulhoule/ferocity/ which was about making Java homoiconic. Namely in ferocity you can write Expression<String> literal = of("Hello World"); Expression<byte[]> expression = getBytes(literal); and then expression.asSource() = '"Hello World".getBytes()' expression.evaluate() = {72, 101, 108, 108, 111, 32, 87, 111, 114, 108, 100} the evaluation is done with the primitive interpreter strategy of evaluating all of the arguments of the function then calling the function, ... I got far enough on that project that I discovered a bunch of things like the expression language has extensions over the real Java language pretty naturally for instance if you have a quote function like the quote in LISP you can write programs in the extended language to process syntactic macros. I convinced myself that the idea is sound and got started on bootstrapping it by building a partial implementation (ferocity0) and code generator to make stubs out of the standard library plus a persistent collections library because that is pretty helpful for building the DSL, then write ferocity1 in ferocity0 wherever it could eliminate boilerplate (like the 8 primitive types.)
- spinningslate 5y ago
  >It is no fun writing external DSLs when you're stuck with your grandfather's parser generator. Agreed. I've tried various different approaches to building external DSLs, from fully hand-written to language workbenches like xtext [0] and spoofax [1]. I always end up back at hand written, often because of error handling. Creating meaningfully helpful error handling with parser generators always seems hard. >If we had grammars that were really extensible Grammar composition is hard. Canonical BNF is top down, meaning alternate clauses are complete and closed in most parser generators. One notable exception is SF3[2] (part of Spoofax). It doesn't require alternate clauses to be grouped and so can support composable languages. It's the most flexible parser-generator I've used, and the syntax is pretty nice too. Fun fact: SDF3 and Spoofax come from Eelco Visser's group at TU-Delft - the same group that originated Scope Graphs, the basis for Github's Stack Graphs [3]. [0] http://www.eclipse.org/Xtext/ http://www.eclipse.org/Xtext/ [1] https://www.spoofax.dev/ https://www.spoofax.dev/ [2] https://eelcovisser.org/publications/2020/AmorimV20.pdf https://eelcovisser.org/publications/2020/AmorimV20.pdf [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29500602 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29500602
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > Grammar composition is hard. Composing grammars may not be possible, but it's easy to define a new grammar that provides the composition of two other grammars along with boilerplate that serves the purpose of determining whether you're in a "grammar A" context or a "grammar B" context. You just need tokens that aren't valid in grammar A or grammar B. No statement in such a grammar would be valid in either subgrammar, because of the boilerplate, but they would all be trivially reducible to valid statements in the appropriate subgrammar.
    - PaulHoule 5y ago
      It drives people nuts but I say there are many characters in Unicode https://unicode-table.com/en/sets/quotation-marks/ https://unicode-table.com/en/sets/quotation-marks/ if you need a new kind of quote, so you could write Integer index = 77; Statement s = « SELECT COUNT(*) FROM that WHERE x = @index »; People ask me "How do you type those on the keyboard?" and I say, "I don't type them on the keyboard, I cut and paste them." I use >128 codepoints all the time and mostly I don't need to because autocomplete works with them. No reason you can't write out.println(√(41.0))
- moonchild 5y ago
  Raku has an extensible grammar supporting all the things you mention.

xhrpost 5y ago

I'm not familiar with the OP content but curious about DSLs in web dev. Is there a whole ecosystem of these that I simply didn't know about? Only one that comes to mind is CoffeeScript but that feels long gone at this point. Going to read about your Hyperscript which sounds interesting

evilduck 5y ago
JSX seems like a pretty common and significant DSL used in JS.
AlchemistCamp 5y ago
Templating DSLs are extremely common—JSX, ERB, HEEX, etc. So are router DSLs as you'll see in Rails, Phoenix and other frameworks. In Elixir, the Ecto query DSL is a pretty big deal as well.

shadowfox 5y ago

This seems like a bit of a strange take to me. LTU was hardly about DSLs or even particular languages, though of course that came up on and off. It was fundamentally a place with discussions on PL theory and related stuff, with the front page being predominantly about current papers. So, the success of Javascript/drop in DSL popularity seem like a strange reason for LTU to stop being useful.

recursivedoubts 5y ago
Perhaps it is a strange take, but LtU seemed a lot more relevant to programming in general earlier in the millenia when the programming language question was less settled. From what I remember the really hot discussions were around things like closures, generic programming, dynamic typing, etc. Lots of new and potentially relevant languages were emerging so there was just more tumult in general, and a lot more interest in language features amongst generalists. Perhaps my biases though: maybe there was some other reason why LtU ended up getting a lot quieter.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

MichaelMoser123 5y ago

> The language wars largely ended, with the more popular languages folding in a lot of the more (at the time) esoteric features. And the popular languages still don't have sensible macros, with the exception of Rust... Once upon a time they had very complicated macro facilities: not just Lisp, the assembly of the S390 had one, etc. etc. Then came C with its incomplete #define thing, and the whole concept came into disrepute...