4 ms·

Tangent: apparently contra DeMarco and Lister, I'd argue that "the worst" are often outright detrimental to a team or project. Which in turn makes me question t

Tangent: apparently contra DeMarco and Lister, I'd argue that "the worst" are often outright detrimental to a team or project. Which in turn makes me question the "math".

ratww 5y ago
It is an interesting observation when put side by side with the sibling post [0]. I think it really depends. A senior that is 10x more productive than an intern or junior? That's perfectly fine, they are here to learn. A mid-level dev that is 10x more productive than another mid-level? A bit of a red flag, and probably detrimental to the morale of the team. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31074653 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31074653
ravedave5 5y ago
I'll never forget having a negatively productive programmer on my team. If he spent an hour on a PR it would take 1.5+ hours of work to get the PR into shape to merge by other people because it took so much explaining for this guy. It was usually better to just scrap his code and start over. If code of his did slip through reviews often times there would be production defects that would then take more time to solve (tracking down the issue, figuring out where the code was, overhead of service tickets etc) than the original implementation. Just totally wild, he had somehow survived years in the org being shipped from team to team and being a nice pleasant guy to be around. How does one calculate the productiveness of someone on a team compared to that?
- saila 5y ago
  Being outwardly pleasant can take precedence over just about anything. I find it ironic as this can lead to a lot of other unpleasantness, perhaps even resentment, people leaving, etc. Being technically competent while also being perceived as merely neutral personality wise can lead to a lower overall qualitative evaluation, potentially affecting raises, promotions, etc. I guess the lesson is that you (almost) always have to play the game or at least that playing the game well can yield many personal benefits.
- zmmmmm 5y ago
  Just be thankful there is a process to get the PR's into shape. My worst experience is someone who was highly prolific at creating enormous amounts of tech debt without the process in place to block it. We are still only about 50% through working off this giant stack of tech debt 2 years later.
- runald 5y ago
  I heard of a creature like that. I think they are called human being. Someone who was assigned to a team of highly efficient robots that never make mistakes and produces bug-free code. Production defects? Yeah, it's obviously that guy's fault alone. /s If I didn't know any better, it sounds like you are just using the guy as someone to conveniently blame.
  - ratww 5y ago
    I disagree with that, it really isn't "normal" to have someone like that, but it does definitely happen. Doing a crap PR once in a while is absolutely normal for everyone, but doing that regularly isn't. This is clearly someone who is working beyond their abilities, and needs help and mentoring. This is not the person's fault, though, this is a management issue, and maybe also a cultural one, where people just assume this person "should know" just because they've been at the company for a long time, and mentoring would be "beneath" them.
goto11 5y ago
The original study was timing how fast developers could solve a given task. The slowest took 10x the time of the fastest. With this setup you can't really get negative results. And participants who didn't finish the task were excluded from the results. A summary of the research: https://www.construx.com/blog/productivity-variations-among-software-developers-and-teams-the-origin-of-10x/ https://www.construx.com/blog/productivity-variations-among-... I don't think there is anything wrong with the math, it is just that real-world productivity is not as easy to measure. The study didn't measure the "maintainability" of the resulting solutions, only how fast they were completed.

Tangent: apparently contra DeMarco and Lister, I'd argue that "the worst" are often outright detrimental to a team or project. Which in turn makes me question the "math".

ratww 5y ago

It is an interesting observation when put side by side with the sibling post [0]. I think it really depends. A senior that is 10x more productive than an intern or junior? That's perfectly fine, they are here to learn. A mid-level dev that is 10x more productive than another mid-level? A bit of a red flag, and probably detrimental to the morale of the team. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31074653 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31074653

ravedave5 5y ago

I'll never forget having a negatively productive programmer on my team. If he spent an hour on a PR it would take 1.5+ hours of work to get the PR into shape to merge by other people because it took so much explaining for this guy. It was usually better to just scrap his code and start over. If code of his did slip through reviews often times there would be production defects that would then take more time to solve (tracking down the issue, figuring out where the code was, overhead of service tickets etc) than the original implementation. Just totally wild, he had somehow survived years in the org being shipped from team to team and being a nice pleasant guy to be around. How does one calculate the productiveness of someone on a team compared to that?

saila 5y ago
Being outwardly pleasant can take precedence over just about anything. I find it ironic as this can lead to a lot of other unpleasantness, perhaps even resentment, people leaving, etc. Being technically competent while also being perceived as merely neutral personality wise can lead to a lower overall qualitative evaluation, potentially affecting raises, promotions, etc. I guess the lesson is that you (almost) always have to play the game or at least that playing the game well can yield many personal benefits.
zmmmmm 5y ago
Just be thankful there is a process to get the PR's into shape. My worst experience is someone who was highly prolific at creating enormous amounts of tech debt without the process in place to block it. We are still only about 50% through working off this giant stack of tech debt 2 years later.
runald 5y ago
I heard of a creature like that. I think they are called human being. Someone who was assigned to a team of highly efficient robots that never make mistakes and produces bug-free code. Production defects? Yeah, it's obviously that guy's fault alone. /s If I didn't know any better, it sounds like you are just using the guy as someone to conveniently blame.
- ratww 5y ago
  I disagree with that, it really isn't "normal" to have someone like that, but it does definitely happen. Doing a crap PR once in a while is absolutely normal for everyone, but doing that regularly isn't. This is clearly someone who is working beyond their abilities, and needs help and mentoring. This is not the person's fault, though, this is a management issue, and maybe also a cultural one, where people just assume this person "should know" just because they've been at the company for a long time, and mentoring would be "beneath" them.

goto11 5y ago

The original study was timing how fast developers could solve a given task. The slowest took 10x the time of the fastest. With this setup you can't really get negative results. And participants who didn't finish the task were excluded from the results. A summary of the research: https://www.construx.com/blog/productivity-variations-among-software-developers-and-teams-the-origin-of-10x/ https://www.construx.com/blog/productivity-variations-among-... I don't think there is anything wrong with the math, it is just that real-world productivity is not as easy to measure. The study didn't measure the "maintainability" of the resulting solutions, only how fast they were completed.