9 ms·
Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging
- closeparen 4y agoGas stations sell gas but also the use of land. I doubt the economics are still going to work out when drivers are staying for 45+ minutes. EV charging likely needs higher value activities attached, like shopping, to subsidize the parking.
- adhocmobility 4y agoWaiting anywhere while your car is charging seems like an awful user experience. I've always imagined that a quick battery swap service would become the standard. Don't know how feasible it is though, maybe someone can shed more light on that.
- brewdad 4y agoWe would need to develop a single standard and a limited number of battery sizes for this to ever be feasible. Go look at how many different starter batteries your typical auto parts store has to stock. Now imagine doing that with batteries that are much larger and much riskier if they are stored/handled improperly.
- adhocmobility 4y agoI can't imagine it, which is why I asked. You certainly seem skeptical. Your arguments aren't very convincing though. >> Too many different start batteries Okay... that's because there's no standard. But isn't that why standards are developed? Could you explain why developing a standard and a limited number of battery sizes is not feasible? >> Risk of storing and handling them improperly Could you explain why batteries are riskier than petrol? And while we're discussing this China's decided to try it out [0]. [0] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside-chinas-electric-drive-swappable-car-batteries-2022-03-24/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside...
- Vladimof 4y ago> It also estimated $1.7 million in revenues for the city from the increased license fees. Are they going to use that money to install EV charging stations?
- kayfox 4y agoIts Vancouver, so no.
- argomo 4y agoSounds like a way to quickly create an unreliable network of shitty, dimly lit EV chargers that help sour EV adoption.
- s0rce 4y agoLike the perpetually broken air compressors in California.
- b112 4y agoWeird. Spend winters California , and one year I had a slow leak in my tire. I could fill it every 4 days and be fine, so I did just that. I found one broken air compressor hose, which I mentioned to the station owner. He ordered a replacement immediately. Our of maybe 50 uses, while travelling all over California, staying in a dozen different places, it seems to me that your reports are inaccurate. (I prefer to fix my car at home, with mechanics I know.)
- frumper 4y agoTwenty years ago I remember it being a constant issue in central California. Gas stations would have air compressors that had the hose ends cut off and stolen. I haven't had in issue in quite a while though.
- toomuchtodo 4y agoWould be better to incentivize 24 hour grocery stores to provide low cost leases to fast DC charge networks. 20-30 minutes grocery shopping or dining is the new charge experience, versus five minute fill ups at your traditional petrol dispenser. Those who can will charge at home or work most of the time.
- deadmutex 4y ago> 20-30 minutes grocery shopping or dining is the new charge experience I would say charging at work (during the day, using solar energy exported into the grid). Or at night, capturing off-peak power generation is the new charge experience. Currently, DC Fast Charging is very expensive to build out and using them frequently reduces battery capacity over time.
- rtlfe 4y ago> I would say charging at work I don't know the numbers offhand, but Vancouver has a pretty low rate of driving commutes compared to most North American cities.
- toomuchtodo 4y agoI agree, but DC fast charging is mandatory for road trips, and a necessary shim until work, home, and apartment charging infra gets scaled out (a friend has a Tesla but no home charging, they charge at the grocery store once per week, for example). Colocate level 2 chargers (~10-15kw) where cars dwell for hours at a time, put Fast DC chargers where people need to eat or use a bathroom. Even a 120v outlet would be fine for use cases like long term parking at an airport, which fully charges an EV in ~4-5 days.
- samcheng 4y agoAgreed! As someone who just completed a 2,000 mile electric road trip, it wasn't TOO inconvenient, but we had to choose our dining based on what was near the charger, and we mostly chose our lodging based on who had overnight charging available. Shopping and meals fit really well into the (traveling) charging use case. I think a cafe would work as well, but I haven't visited a successful "charge cafe" yet. Of course, the most convenient charging is just plugging it in overnight at home, but travel stops are real use cases, too...
- kevin_thibedeau 4y agoWhere are these urban gas stations going to provide EV parking?
- alisonatwork 4y agoAs mentioned in the article, the proposal would require only a single fast charging spot to avoid the fee.
- meetups323 4y agoSorry what? A fast charging spot handles maybe one car every 15 minutes. The smallest gas station handles 4 cars every 5 minutes. Using gas station land for fast charging doesn't make sense... far better off requiring grocery stores, parks, shopping centers, etc. to install banks of fast chargers. That way there's at least something more to do while waiting for charge than... "hang out at a gas station for far longer than anyone save perhaps beggars/drug addicts would willingly subject themselves to"
- alisonatwork 4y agoI'm not passing judgement on the proposal, I am merely pointing out that there is no need to "provide EV parking" to comply - all that is required is a single spot, which obviously already exists otherwise the gas station itself would not exist. If a gas station is so busy supplying internal combustion vehicles that it cannot free up even a single spot for a charging station, then presumably they can also afford to pay the fee. It's true that it would be better for the user of the electric vehicle to have some stuff to do nearby the spot where they are charging, but in this hypothetical situation where a gas station is so small that they can barely cram a single charging spot in, presumably the gas station is also located walking distance from plenty of shops, parks and other facilities.
- speedgoose 4y agoIn Oslo the stations usually put chargers on what used to be normal parking spots. They also replace some gas pumps by a charger or two.
- elil17 4y agoWhy should EV chargers be at gas stations?
- Schopenhauer01 4y ago
- olivermarks 4y agohttps://youtu.be/J6eS6JzBn0k https://youtu.be/J6eS6JzBn0k Agree, best to keep BEV charging well aways from anything inflammable
- meragrin_ 4y agoI think that is the point. Kill them sooner. I cannot imagine anyone charging at a gas station unless they are desperate.
- space_rock 4y agoAny other highway locations would be better. Best thing about an EV is you fill up next to a restaurant or cafe. Never have to go to a gas station again
- foobarian 4y agoGiven it's Vancouver couldn't they crank up the property taxes instead? Might relieve some of the real estate pressure coming from second-home owners as well - win-win!
- apike 4y agoVancouver could certainly increase property taxes across the board – a very divisive issue with strong support in some corners and vociferous opposition in others – but the city doesn't have the authority to adjust property taxes in special cases, for example for properties that don't provide EV charging. That would require a legal change by the province.
- chipsa 4y agoCould they just generally increase taxes across the board, and give out cash to properties that provide EV charging (not as a rebate, but other incentive)?
- mostertoaster 4y agoAhh yes because raising property taxes definitely makes housing more affordable. I’m going to start creating leases for renters where they have a choice to pay less overall rent, but they pay property taxes, or they don’t pay property taxes but pay more in rent. So for example lease will be $2000 a month, or $1600 a month plus property taxes that are currently $300 a month. I think every landlord should do this.
- b112 4y agoGood call. Let renters see how tax affects their rent.
- b112 4y agoMore property tax!! I can't tell if you are joking or not. Note that in Canada, cities get lots of funding perks. One is a portion of the GST.
- rtlfe 4y agoI like this approach a lot better than the municipal curb-side charging stations that a lot of cities are building. The former naturally scales up and down with overall demand for cars, while the latter further entrenches cars as the dominant transportation method by making it virtually impossible to convert those curb spaces to other uses.
- giantg2 4y agoThis seems misguided to me. One of the biggest benefits to an EV is not having to go to a gas station. Most people can charge at home for their typical needs. Next, it makes sense to put then at a person's work, then at stores or public parking. And of course there needs to be charging infrastructure on highway gas stations and/or rest stops. Making all gas stations, especially urban ones, pay a fine for not having chargers is stupid.
- zeryx 4y agoMost people in Canada don't have a home, they rent - especially in BC.
- giantg2 4y agoIf they rent, where do they park at that residence? That's where it makes sense to charge. How many of the renters without parking have a car? If it's really true that "Most people in Canada" don't have a home, then do you really think that the 66 gas stations in Vancouver can accommodate all those people?
- ehnto 4y agoOn the street, or shared parking lots, or yes indeed, not at all. Try organizing an on-the-sidewalk charging station for your unit block, even if you own your unit, you've got to convince your strata/hoa to plan, consult councils, build and maintain it. Then who pays for the electricity? At the moment at least, you're pretty likely to be the only one with an EV, so either everyone is paying strata fees to charge your car for you, or you're in some boutique agreement outside the strata and they put in a meter just for you, or you've payed for the whole thing on your own. Forget it entirely if you're renting.
- giantg2 4y agoYeah, that's why I mentioned public infrastructure as one of the options for on-street charging. The other reason I raise this, is that it could be more beneficial to fine the landlords or strata rather than gas stations. After all, if the goal is to increase charging infrastructure, there is more potential capacity here than at 66 gas stations and the paradigm for charging at longer duration parking spaces (home, work, restaurants) is more effective than charging at a short stop location (gas sations).
- mabbo 4y agoThis kind of makes sense to me. Gas stations are already setup as places where cars are coming and going frequently. As cars move from gas to electric, the use of these places transitions smoothly. It's a pigouvian tax: tax the things we want less of; in this case gas stations without chargers. I always kind of like those. Could work.
- bsuvc 4y agoIntended outcome: more EV charging stations Actual outcome: fewer gas stations
- goodpoint 4y agoStill good.
- bsuvc 4y agoI suppose so, if your view of success for one thing is to make something else worse. My first reaction is that this would hurt poor people, who can’t afford to buy new EVs. That doesn’t meet my definition of “good”.
- meragrin_ 4y agoI think fewer gas stations is the intended outcome. I don't know anyone who would want to spend 15 minutes at a gas station let alone an hour. I just wonder if some chains have been preparing for this eventuality by slowly transforming themselves. I know Speedway has added cafes to some of their stores.
- olivermarks 4y agoI think gas stations should charge 10k annual fee to Vancouver for the inconvenience of having endless lines of cars waiting to park and take space to recharge for hours if they choose to install electric charging products.
- trhr 4y agoGas stations are literally the worst places to put EV chargers. Just mandate that every employer with >50 employees has X chargers, Y of which must be publicly accessible.
- duxup 4y agoI feel like a carrot might be better here… and for places other than gas stations. I think it is too early to go stick on everyone. Let alone some unfortunate malicious compliance that doesn’t help.
- kayfox 4y agoHaving sat around in EVs charging with nothing to do, it would be better for Vancouver to incentivize charging stations at places where people might spend that time doing something, like stores, restaurants, etc. It would also be nice for chargers to be installed for street parking in popular areas. Sitting at a gas station for a half hour to an hour sounds more like punishment for having an EV.
- brewdad 4y agoMost gas stations in my area are located near other amenities. Your average driver will still be inclined to hang out at their car though, since getting to those other stores and restaurants involves walking across huge parking lots or along high speed, pedestrian hostile roads.
- mortenjorck 4y agoExactly; mandating chargers at gas stations has to be one of the worst thought-out policy ideas for charging infrastructure that I've seen. An urban Target store in my area has a row of chargers along one wall of its parking garage. A carrot, stick, or both to encourage that in other places with large parking areas, especially ones where people are likely to stay awhile, would certainly seem like the way to go.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- ResNet 4y ago> Gas stations would be required to provide 50 kilowatts of charging power — enough for one DC fast charger. Convenience is greatly sacrificed if only one charger is installed — it'll be a gamble if your local gas station has their charger free, etc., which makes planning on when to charge tricky. As many gas stations are likely to only invest the bare minimum to avoid this fee, this could become a common frustration if this goes ahead.
- teeray 4y agoI wonder how many will buy the cheapest compliant EV charger they can find and just hang a permanent “out of order” sign on it.
- brewdad 4y agoI'm a fan of the Youtube channel The Straight Pipes. This is always their biggest complaint about EVs. They drive in the Toronto area and it's not uncommon for 50-75% of the chargers to be non-functional. https://www.youtube.com/user/TheStraightPipes https://www.youtube.com/user/TheStraightPipes
- lkxijlewlf 4y agoI get the idea, but a lot of gas stations do not have the real estate to host several cars parked and charging for a period of time.
- gist 4y agoLegally will never happen. Will be challenged and while maybe they reserve the right to approve new locations with this (minor) stipulation not going to take existing businesses and wack them with a $10k fee like this. And forgetting the purpose or the reason simply not what you do.
- brewdad 4y agoIt seems like there are ways to make this legally viable. Perhaps raise the business license fees for gas stations by $10k a year and then offer a rebate for stations that install EV charging. I feel like that would pass legal muster, if they could make it work politically.
- rhacker 4y agoHas anyone noticed lately there's an overwhelming number of laws designed more for virtue signalling than effectiveness? Straws for example. Shouldn't we be writing laws banning plastic straws rather than fine places for passing them out without being asked. Also for EVs if there is a lot of money in charging networks, wouldn't the market just "work" for that. I'm kind of sick of liberal politics (but not liberal ideas - like people buying EVs and supporting a clean environment).
- RobertWHurst 4y agoAs someone who as lived and worked in Vancouver most of my life. The current administration at city hall is the worst in this regard that we have ever had. Under there watch the city has drastically declined.
- tyrfing 4y ago> Modelling provided to the city estimated that about 30 per cent of gas stations and 40 per cent of parking lots would install chargers by 2030 Basically, they expect the majority of gas stations and parking lots to just pay the fee instead. Pretty solid indictment of the economics of installing chargers when even a 10k/year penalty isn't enough to tip the scale.
- sparrish 4y agoPutting new wine into old wineskins never works out well for the wine or the wineskins.