5 ms·

What's the conclusion though? Modern software is crap so you shouldnt use any libraries and roll your own implementations of everything? Sounds like a recipe f

by leshow 4y ago

What's the conclusion though? Modern software is crap so you shouldnt use any libraries and roll your own implementations of everything? Sounds like a recipe for lots of bugs.

ratww 4y ago
Did you had fun knocking this strawman? Nobody said or implied that you need to eschew libraries and write everything from scratch to achieve performance, and it is frankly a very dishonest way of conducting this conversation. Especially considering that we’re talking about someone (Casey) whose previous job was pretty much selling high-performance libraries (RAD Tools). The claim from the (to be cheeky) “anti-performance” crowd is that it is impossible or unnecessary to extract more performance from modern computers. All that we’re saying is that things are not so black and white. “The conclusion”, if you need one, is that people saying that more performance is impossible or impractical as a knee-jerk response are often wrong.
- leshow 4y ago
  If there is no conclusion then you are just un-productively saying "modern software sucks". My point is, if the claim is that modern software is bad, what do they offer as the solution to that? > The conclusion”, if you need one, is that people saying that more performance is impossible or impractical as a knee-jerk response are often wrong. This is barely a statement. I've never heard "performance is impossible" from anyone, and it's amusing you would accuse me of a strawman and then introduce one like this.
  - ratww 4y ago
    The phrase “software is crap” was said by someone criticizing Casey Muratori, not by himself or by me. It was a mischaracterization. If you want to paraphrase him correctly, he has claimed several times that there are several low-hanging-fruits performance-wise in modern software. > I've never heard "performance is impossible" from anyone First, I said “impossible or impractical”. This comment section is littered with the second. Second, this is not an exaggeration, nor refers to you. It actually happened: a FAANG product manager told Casey it would take several years and a PHd degree to fix some performance issues in a MS product that Casey had diagnosed. Casey then proceeded to create a performant proof of concept with feature parity over a weekend or so. > what do they offer as the solution to that? Are you asking for a silver bullet? Because there are none. The first step towards a solution for low performance in modern software is stopping the automatic reactions of saying performance is unnecessary, impractical or even impossible, whenever someome with enough knowledge of the problem domain claims otherwise. The path to faster software involves actual hard work, rather than attempting to publicly shame people who offer solutions. I really don’t think this is unreasonable at all.
    - leshow 4y ago
      > The path to faster software involves actual hard work, rather than attempting to publicly shame people who offer solutions. Again, what solutions? Until you can define what these are I'm not sure what his position is or what he's advocating for. No offense but I've exhausted my interest in the topic, take care
      - ratww 4y ago
        > Again, what solutions? I am talking about actual concrete solutions. “Do this code change and the bottleneck will go away”. This person offered ACTUAL CONCRETE SOLUTIONS to performance issues. He literally opened bug-tickets and discussed with the team, and provided proof-of-concepts, but a FAANG manager attempted to shut him down. This is not some snake oil salesman offering magic performance beans, this is someone who actually knew what they were talking about, and was able to diagnose performance problems in the operating system and solve it, for free. This isn’t some hypothetical, he REALLY did fix it despite being told it was impossible. EDIT: Like the sibling poster said, the systemic solution is to "git gut". Which is clearly impossible as long as developers and managers foster a culture of dismissing performance, or in some cases inventing excuses not to work on it, as was seen in the Casey/Microsoft debacle.
      - dogleash 4y ago
        >Again, what solutions? The solution is to git gud. There certainly was actionable advice in the couple of his videos I've seen (I haven't watched many, he's a wandering talker). But the underlying theme is about development process and frame of mind. Just adopting a list of techniques would miss the "greater than the sum of it's parts" value.
        johnnyanmac 4y ago
        >The solution is to git gud. someone unironically espousing this as a "solution" to a struggling creator will never understand why other frameworks become popular when they cater to helping them out instead of throwing a book at them. That's why Unity is more popular among small creators. They don't necessarily want to be an engineer, they want to create art. This mentality spreads outside of programming to other software as well. Gimp, Blender (which is fortunately making changes towards accessibility), etc.
mbesto 4y ago
Isn't the reason that Unity/UE have crap performance because of the capabilities they offer? For example, you can run the app on multiple platforms. This is the Electron or Hybrid app argument all over again. For 95% of the applications built, the ability to launch on Win, Mac, Linux, Android and iOS far outweighs the bloat and performance hit you have. But for the few AAA titles out there, then yes supporting native support might be worthwhile. I mean, thats what modern software development is all about - tradeoffs.
- ratww 4y ago
  > Isn't the reason that Unity/UE have crap performance because of the capabilities they offer? For example, you can run the app on multiple platforms. Is anyone, Casey or someone in this thread, complaining that Unity or Unreal have low performance? I don’t think so. Casey Muratori’s performance rants of the past were almost always about specific pieces of software and in the most public of those he managed to show how to fix those in an acceptable timeframe.
  - mbesto 4y ago
    > or someone in this thread, complaining that Unity or Unreal have low performance? I don’t think so. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31069502 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31069502 > That's extremely reductionist. He's saying that modern software is crap regarding performance. And whenever he does complain, he manages to demonstrate it. Did you even read the thread I was responding to?
    - anonymoushn 4y ago
      As far as I know, UE doesn't have crap performance. Some features of Unity might have crap performance, and the solution used by studios shipping games in Unity is to not use those features or use them very carefully. I'm not GP, but I read the thread, and it seems like you think that this guy has severe performance problems with every piece of modern software, and therefor he has severe performance problems with UE and Unity. He doesn't though. If he did, he would probably publish some rant about the particular problems he has with these particular pieces of software

by leshow 4y ago

What's the conclusion though? Modern software is crap so you shouldnt use any libraries and roll your own implementations of everything? Sounds like a recipe for lots of bugs.

ratww 4y ago

Did you had fun knocking this strawman? Nobody said or implied that you need to eschew libraries and write everything from scratch to achieve performance, and it is frankly a very dishonest way of conducting this conversation. Especially considering that we’re talking about someone (Casey) whose previous job was pretty much selling high-performance libraries (RAD Tools). The claim from the (to be cheeky) “anti-performance” crowd is that it is impossible or unnecessary to extract more performance from modern computers. All that we’re saying is that things are not so black and white. “The conclusion”, if you need one, is that people saying that more performance is impossible or impractical as a knee-jerk response are often wrong.

leshow 4y ago
If there is no conclusion then you are just un-productively saying "modern software sucks". My point is, if the claim is that modern software is bad, what do they offer as the solution to that? > The conclusion”, if you need one, is that people saying that more performance is impossible or impractical as a knee-jerk response are often wrong. This is barely a statement. I've never heard "performance is impossible" from anyone, and it's amusing you would accuse me of a strawman and then introduce one like this.
- ratww 4y ago
  The phrase “software is crap” was said by someone criticizing Casey Muratori, not by himself or by me. It was a mischaracterization. If you want to paraphrase him correctly, he has claimed several times that there are several low-hanging-fruits performance-wise in modern software. > I've never heard "performance is impossible" from anyone First, I said “impossible or impractical”. This comment section is littered with the second. Second, this is not an exaggeration, nor refers to you. It actually happened: a FAANG product manager told Casey it would take several years and a PHd degree to fix some performance issues in a MS product that Casey had diagnosed. Casey then proceeded to create a performant proof of concept with feature parity over a weekend or so. > what do they offer as the solution to that? Are you asking for a silver bullet? Because there are none. The first step towards a solution for low performance in modern software is stopping the automatic reactions of saying performance is unnecessary, impractical or even impossible, whenever someome with enough knowledge of the problem domain claims otherwise. The path to faster software involves actual hard work, rather than attempting to publicly shame people who offer solutions. I really don’t think this is unreasonable at all.
  - leshow 4y ago
    > The path to faster software involves actual hard work, rather than attempting to publicly shame people who offer solutions. Again, what solutions? Until you can define what these are I'm not sure what his position is or what he's advocating for. No offense but I've exhausted my interest in the topic, take care
    - ratww 4y ago
      > Again, what solutions? I am talking about actual concrete solutions. “Do this code change and the bottleneck will go away”. This person offered ACTUAL CONCRETE SOLUTIONS to performance issues. He literally opened bug-tickets and discussed with the team, and provided proof-of-concepts, but a FAANG manager attempted to shut him down. This is not some snake oil salesman offering magic performance beans, this is someone who actually knew what they were talking about, and was able to diagnose performance problems in the operating system and solve it, for free. This isn’t some hypothetical, he REALLY did fix it despite being told it was impossible. EDIT: Like the sibling poster said, the systemic solution is to "git gut". Which is clearly impossible as long as developers and managers foster a culture of dismissing performance, or in some cases inventing excuses not to work on it, as was seen in the Casey/Microsoft debacle.
    - dogleash 4y ago
      >Again, what solutions? The solution is to git gud. There certainly was actionable advice in the couple of his videos I've seen (I haven't watched many, he's a wandering talker). But the underlying theme is about development process and frame of mind. Just adopting a list of techniques would miss the "greater than the sum of it's parts" value.
      - johnnyanmac 4y ago
        >The solution is to git gud. someone unironically espousing this as a "solution" to a struggling creator will never understand why other frameworks become popular when they cater to helping them out instead of throwing a book at them. That's why Unity is more popular among small creators. They don't necessarily want to be an engineer, they want to create art. This mentality spreads outside of programming to other software as well. Gimp, Blender (which is fortunately making changes towards accessibility), etc.

mbesto 4y ago

Isn't the reason that Unity/UE have crap performance because of the capabilities they offer? For example, you can run the app on multiple platforms. This is the Electron or Hybrid app argument all over again. For 95% of the applications built, the ability to launch on Win, Mac, Linux, Android and iOS far outweighs the bloat and performance hit you have. But for the few AAA titles out there, then yes supporting native support might be worthwhile. I mean, thats what modern software development is all about - tradeoffs.

ratww 4y ago
> Isn't the reason that Unity/UE have crap performance because of the capabilities they offer? For example, you can run the app on multiple platforms. Is anyone, Casey or someone in this thread, complaining that Unity or Unreal have low performance? I don’t think so. Casey Muratori’s performance rants of the past were almost always about specific pieces of software and in the most public of those he managed to show how to fix those in an acceptable timeframe.
- mbesto 4y ago
  > or someone in this thread, complaining that Unity or Unreal have low performance? I don’t think so. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31069502 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31069502 > That's extremely reductionist. He's saying that modern software is crap regarding performance. And whenever he does complain, he manages to demonstrate it. Did you even read the thread I was responding to?
  - anonymoushn 4y ago
    As far as I know, UE doesn't have crap performance. Some features of Unity might have crap performance, and the solution used by studios shipping games in Unity is to not use those features or use them very carefully. I'm not GP, but I read the thread, and it seems like you think that this guy has severe performance problems with every piece of modern software, and therefor he has severe performance problems with UE and Unity. He doesn't though. If he did, he would probably publish some rant about the particular problems he has with these particular pieces of software