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I don't think the delivery question is about how to get electricity to a few early adopters. It's about how the grid takes on the increased load of millions of

I don't think the delivery question is about how to get electricity to a few early adopters. It's about how the grid takes on the increased load of millions of electric cars.

shiftpgdn 5y ago
Every single family home in Texas has at least one A/C unit pulling 10-60 amps of power from May - August and the grid is mostly just fine due to the availability of peaker plants. I think grid problems for people charging at home is overstated.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  Texas famously has its own electrical grid (for better or worse) that is built with this concept at least somewhat in mind. But MN and WI and IL do not have a grid built to charge (maybe) 60 million automobiles. CA even more so. Even in Texas, the issue of getting sufficient amperage to residents of the state's larger cities is non-trivial, not necessarily because of supply but because of physical access.
- newaccount2021 5y ago
jjtheblunt 5y ago
Right, but recharging on 110v plugs is adequate for daily travel if not cross country, so if the grid can handle roughly one lightbulb per house left on overnight, it can charge cars. The calculation that's unclear is if every car is a big battery tesla and if its entire range is drained every single day. That's just irrelevant, but what fear-mongering focuses on.
- _aavaa_ 5y ago
  I think it's a little disingenous to compare the load of an electric car to "one lightbulb". One lightbulb is probably 100W, 200W if you're pushing it. The car is probably drawing the max 1500-2000W it can from the plug
  - jjtheblunt 5y ago
    >The car is probably drawing the max 1500-2000W it can from the plug They don't draw from the plug like that; their onboard electronics is configurable to slow charge, and thus the incandescent bulb or two analogy. It's actually not misleading at all, after 7+ years of doing so, and paying electricity bills for such. The technique, to your point, works well when charging overnight when rates are low and the time to charge need not be a short time span, which therefore means the average daily distance isn't outlandish.
- flavius29663 5y ago
  no offense, but it seems like you don't know how tension and current intensity relate to each other. Tension (100V) is like the pressure you get at your water tap: it can be high or low. Current Intensity is how much water it's flowing through your tap. The same amount of water (say 100 liters per minute) can flow from a high pressure tap that is only opened a little bit, or from a low pressure tap opened all the way. Just because the car charges at 110V, it does not mean it consumes only as much as a bulb. In order to charge overnight, an EV will need to draw 1000s of times more current than a bulb. Multiply that by all the houses in a city, and you start having issues.
  - bryanlarsen 5y ago
    An average car needs about 5 kWh of electricity daily. That's 24 hours of two incandescent light bulbs. And it's needed overnight when the grid is almost idle.
    - flavius29663 5y ago
      average daily distance is 40 miles. Average consumption is 0.346kWh per mile. That is 13 KWh per day. I was talking about overnight only, because you definitely don't want everyone to charge their EVs during peak hours, so that is around 10 hours, you need about 1.3 KW constantly during that time. BTW, why did you mention duration of 24Hours, but then said it's only needed overnight? If you have 2 EVs per family, that is 2.6 KW. It takes us to 26 large incandescent lightbulbs (I can't barely find 100W anymore) or 260 LED bulbs. This all assumes that the EV plays nice with the grid and only charges at the minimum draw, rather than as fast as it safely can. If a Tesla charges at 48AMPs, that (5KW) is going to be MUCH larger than a lightbulb). It's not as simple as: one light bulb is the same as one EV...I agree it's not an insurmountable problem, I don't even think it's the biggest problem with EVs(batteries are), but you can't just handwave it away.
      - jjtheblunt 5y ago
        > I dont' even think it's the biggest problem with EVs(batteries are) agreed, and this has been a great conversation. It makes me realize, i wonder if there's big money to be made by pushing the narrative that "the grid" can't handle EVs, since for average distance trips the grid impact for our ev really has been on the order of an incandescent or two running through the night, and we align with your average stats.
magicalhippo 5y ago
> It's about how the grid takes on the increased load of millions of electric cars. In my condominium we have chargers which talk to each other, to limit the overall power draw for all our cars. Modern chargers also integrate with grid pricing, so they can charge when the price is low (and hence ample supply). Couple that with EVs starting to be able to act as grid-connected batteries, and it seems the equation isn't as horrible as it might first appear. Not saying upgrades won't be needed, more so in some countries than others.
- ethanbond 5y ago
  Yeah I personally have no clue how valid this concern is, and with that ignorance I can confidently say it can and should be solved ;) I was only pointing out that the comment above ("I can charge my car") didn't seem like it was responding to the actual concern ("can we charge 300,000,000 cars?")
  - jjtheblunt 5y ago
    > "can we charge 300,000,000 cars?" == "is the average driven distance per day ~40miles" && "can the grid handle running ~ two lightbulbs for 12 hours for each electric car needing 40miles of charge?"

I don't think the delivery question is about how to get electricity to a few early adopters. It's about how the grid takes on the increased load of millions of electric cars.

shiftpgdn 5y ago

Every single family home in Texas has at least one A/C unit pulling 10-60 amps of power from May - August and the grid is mostly just fine due to the availability of peaker plants. I think grid problems for people charging at home is overstated.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
Texas famously has its own electrical grid (for better or worse) that is built with this concept at least somewhat in mind. But MN and WI and IL do not have a grid built to charge (maybe) 60 million automobiles. CA even more so. Even in Texas, the issue of getting sufficient amperage to residents of the state's larger cities is non-trivial, not necessarily because of supply but because of physical access.
newaccount2021 5y ago

jjtheblunt 5y ago

Right, but recharging on 110v plugs is adequate for daily travel if not cross country, so if the grid can handle roughly one lightbulb per house left on overnight, it can charge cars. The calculation that's unclear is if every car is a big battery tesla and if its entire range is drained every single day. That's just irrelevant, but what fear-mongering focuses on.

_aavaa_ 5y ago
I think it's a little disingenous to compare the load of an electric car to "one lightbulb". One lightbulb is probably 100W, 200W if you're pushing it. The car is probably drawing the max 1500-2000W it can from the plug
- jjtheblunt 5y ago
  >The car is probably drawing the max 1500-2000W it can from the plug They don't draw from the plug like that; their onboard electronics is configurable to slow charge, and thus the incandescent bulb or two analogy. It's actually not misleading at all, after 7+ years of doing so, and paying electricity bills for such. The technique, to your point, works well when charging overnight when rates are low and the time to charge need not be a short time span, which therefore means the average daily distance isn't outlandish.
flavius29663 5y ago
no offense, but it seems like you don't know how tension and current intensity relate to each other. Tension (100V) is like the pressure you get at your water tap: it can be high or low. Current Intensity is how much water it's flowing through your tap. The same amount of water (say 100 liters per minute) can flow from a high pressure tap that is only opened a little bit, or from a low pressure tap opened all the way. Just because the car charges at 110V, it does not mean it consumes only as much as a bulb. In order to charge overnight, an EV will need to draw 1000s of times more current than a bulb. Multiply that by all the houses in a city, and you start having issues.
- bryanlarsen 5y ago
  An average car needs about 5 kWh of electricity daily. That's 24 hours of two incandescent light bulbs. And it's needed overnight when the grid is almost idle.
  - flavius29663 5y ago
    average daily distance is 40 miles. Average consumption is 0.346kWh per mile. That is 13 KWh per day. I was talking about overnight only, because you definitely don't want everyone to charge their EVs during peak hours, so that is around 10 hours, you need about 1.3 KW constantly during that time. BTW, why did you mention duration of 24Hours, but then said it's only needed overnight? If you have 2 EVs per family, that is 2.6 KW. It takes us to 26 large incandescent lightbulbs (I can't barely find 100W anymore) or 260 LED bulbs. This all assumes that the EV plays nice with the grid and only charges at the minimum draw, rather than as fast as it safely can. If a Tesla charges at 48AMPs, that (5KW) is going to be MUCH larger than a lightbulb). It's not as simple as: one light bulb is the same as one EV...I agree it's not an insurmountable problem, I don't even think it's the biggest problem with EVs(batteries are), but you can't just handwave it away.
    - jjtheblunt 5y ago
      > I dont' even think it's the biggest problem with EVs(batteries are) agreed, and this has been a great conversation. It makes me realize, i wonder if there's big money to be made by pushing the narrative that "the grid" can't handle EVs, since for average distance trips the grid impact for our ev really has been on the order of an incandescent or two running through the night, and we align with your average stats.

magicalhippo 5y ago

> It's about how the grid takes on the increased load of millions of electric cars. In my condominium we have chargers which talk to each other, to limit the overall power draw for all our cars. Modern chargers also integrate with grid pricing, so they can charge when the price is low (and hence ample supply). Couple that with EVs starting to be able to act as grid-connected batteries, and it seems the equation isn't as horrible as it might first appear. Not saying upgrades won't be needed, more so in some countries than others.

ethanbond 5y ago
Yeah I personally have no clue how valid this concern is, and with that ignorance I can confidently say it can and should be solved ;) I was only pointing out that the comment above ("I can charge my car") didn't seem like it was responding to the actual concern ("can we charge 300,000,000 cars?")
- jjtheblunt 5y ago
  > "can we charge 300,000,000 cars?" == "is the average driven distance per day ~40miles" && "can the grid handle running ~ two lightbulbs for 12 hours for each electric car needing 40miles of charge?"