4 ms·

> Except we're talking about video games, where time and time again performance was crucial In that domain speed is pretty important, but even there it's not a

by Ygg2 5y ago

> Except we're talking about video games, where time and time again performance was crucial In that domain speed is pretty important, but even there it's not as crucial as you might assume. I'm not saying discount it altogether, just good gameplay will trump good performance. They aren't completely unrelated, but there are diminishing returns. What are the titles that need to be that much performant? AAA titles are just rehash/sequels with latest monetization tactics tacked on. On low end you got shitty mobile games that only optimization is user conditioning. That leaves you with Indies, that can use GameMaker/Unity and still get their game out. Sure some AAA use Unreal to their absolute limits. In same way some people develop drivers for embedded hardware. You still don't want to develop games and software in general, the same way those few studios do.

sarchertech 5y ago
> What are the titles that need to be that much performant? Nearly every single game no matter what it looks like makes performance trade offs. Number of enemies on screen, ai search depth, world size, world granularity, whether to allow partial transparency, number of lights, number/complexity of systems etc… Even for something that may look like just another indie side scroller. Sometimes these constraints breed creativity. But if you use game maker/unity, you will find yourself regularly running into performance issues that will require problem solving. The same is true when making an engine, but the problem space is far, far more nuanced than just: some types of games don’t need to worry about performance and so are fine using game maker/unity.
ratww 5y ago
That's a gross simplification of how the market of games works and why people buy them. Plus, you're claiming that both AAA and mobile are money-grabbing schemes where performance and features affected by performance don't matter, which couldn't be further from the truth. Not to mention that very often good gameplay also requires appropriate performance. This is still critical in titles not targeting high-end hardware, but also in AAA. Frame render time matters, and lack of performance can affects the work of not only developers, but also artists. Even in mobile games performance could make a huge difference: something with low performance might not run in some mobile phones and you'd lose a huge chunk of audience (and no, before you say it, it's not just people with iPhone 16s that are a target to make money).
- Ygg2 5y ago
  > That's a gross simplification Sure it's a simplification. But it is the truth. AAA are generally that way now, because people don't want to bet a lot of money without it being a sure fire bet. And it's same for game mills in mobile land. > Not to mention that very often good gameplay also requires appropriate performance. Yes, but point is good performance. Casey insists performance is thing to optimize for. When in reality it's like n-th thing to focus-on.
  - ratww 5y ago
    > Sure it's a simplification Yep, a gross and incorrect one, invented only to advance an argument that doesn't match reality. Performance and ms-per-frame is still highly critical in AAA-land, despite your opinions on current gaming trends. There are people working hard on it, including the Unreal and Unity teams. > Yes, but point is good performance. Casey insists performance is thing to optimize for. When in reality it's like n-th thing to focus-on. Again, this is a bit of a misrepresentation, and probably a bit of projection. His rants are often about specific issues he finds, and mostly about low-hanging-fruit issues that cause real usability problems for end users. He might write and teach how to write high-performance code and high-performance architecture, but it was not to the detriment of code quality, speed of development or architecture quality. The architecture of Handmade Hero, for example, is significantly better than most "make your own engine" shows on Youtube.
    - Ygg2 5y ago
      > Yep, a gross and incorrect one, invented only to advance an argument that doesn't match reality. Performance and ms-per-frame is still highly critical in AAA-land, I beg to differ it's not an incorrect one. AAA Titles (+ if I did play them): Destiny - Review say perf OK. Elden Ring(+) - Performance Ok on consoles on release it was a slideshow. It ran like garbage. Personally I think it's a clusterfuck GTA V(+) - Had a huge performance blunder. Released for n-thienth time. Good performance today for game that was released in 2013. FIFA/NFL/Sports game - Runs ok. It's the same game as year X-1 except with some tweaks (like microtransactions and ads). Call of Duty - Review while perf is Ok, it's not something Battlefield - They were Ok, they went too loose with optimization resulting in the shitfest that was 2042. They got punished for it. Fortnite - Sure stellar work from the guys making Unreal engine no complaints. According to revenue PUBG belongs on this list. PlayerUnknown’s Battlegrounds - Barely holding itself at the seams this game made mad money while being a buggy and lice infested mess. It Pokemon - It's Ok, but nothing to write home about. Resident Evil: Village(+) - Played it. It ran like shite. Had to crack it to get decent performance. Far Cry 6 - Ok performance, but essentially Farcry X-1. With more content. --------- From examples given, while performance is usually critical for online multiplayer shooters, it's not so much being faster as being less slow than the guy next to you. E.g. PUBG was fine and dandy, even though it was really, really badly optimized. > Again, this is a bit of a misrepresentation, and probably a bit of projection. His rants are often about specific issues he finds, and mostly about low-hanging-fruit issues that cause real usability problems for end users. It's not. He compares Visual Studio 2019 to Visual Studio 6 and concludes that MSFT is staffed by idiots https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC-0tCy4P1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC-0tCy4P1U Does he compare OS support? Features present? Libs used? No. It's bad and it sucks an MSFT doesn't know to do fast software.
johnnyanmac 5y ago
>AAA titles are just rehash/sequels with latest monetization tactics tacked on. On low end you got shitty mobile games that only optimization is user conditioning ehhh. I agree with most of your sentiment, but this is starting to be the gamer version of this topic. Replace "modern software is crap" with "modern AAA games are crap". The industry is too varied to lump it all into one box, especially when several of the largest games this year came out with your normal "buy one get everything" monetization. Back on topic: I'd say optimization is still an important and under aprreciated factor of development. One where you don't notice it when it's done right but is all that's talked about when done wrong. I want to hope UE5 solves some of those problems, but the proof will be in the pudding as always.
- Ygg2 5y ago
  > starting to be the gamer version of this topic They are crap and getting worse on a completely different axis (social engineering). It's not all gloom and doom, people can get insensitive to strategies and good games haven't, stopped getting made. > I'd say optimization is still an important and under aprreciated factor of development I never said it didn't. I said It's not be all end all, and not optimizing is causing collapse of civilization.

by Ygg2 5y ago

sarchertech 5y ago

> What are the titles that need to be that much performant? Nearly every single game no matter what it looks like makes performance trade offs. Number of enemies on screen, ai search depth, world size, world granularity, whether to allow partial transparency, number of lights, number/complexity of systems etc… Even for something that may look like just another indie side scroller. Sometimes these constraints breed creativity. But if you use game maker/unity, you will find yourself regularly running into performance issues that will require problem solving. The same is true when making an engine, but the problem space is far, far more nuanced than just: some types of games don’t need to worry about performance and so are fine using game maker/unity.

ratww 5y ago

That's a gross simplification of how the market of games works and why people buy them. Plus, you're claiming that both AAA and mobile are money-grabbing schemes where performance and features affected by performance don't matter, which couldn't be further from the truth. Not to mention that very often good gameplay also requires appropriate performance. This is still critical in titles not targeting high-end hardware, but also in AAA. Frame render time matters, and lack of performance can affects the work of not only developers, but also artists. Even in mobile games performance could make a huge difference: something with low performance might not run in some mobile phones and you'd lose a huge chunk of audience (and no, before you say it, it's not just people with iPhone 16s that are a target to make money).

Ygg2 5y ago
> That's a gross simplification Sure it's a simplification. But it is the truth. AAA are generally that way now, because people don't want to bet a lot of money without it being a sure fire bet. And it's same for game mills in mobile land. > Not to mention that very often good gameplay also requires appropriate performance. Yes, but point is good performance. Casey insists performance is thing to optimize for. When in reality it's like n-th thing to focus-on.
- ratww 5y ago
  > Sure it's a simplification Yep, a gross and incorrect one, invented only to advance an argument that doesn't match reality. Performance and ms-per-frame is still highly critical in AAA-land, despite your opinions on current gaming trends. There are people working hard on it, including the Unreal and Unity teams. > Yes, but point is good performance. Casey insists performance is thing to optimize for. When in reality it's like n-th thing to focus-on. Again, this is a bit of a misrepresentation, and probably a bit of projection. His rants are often about specific issues he finds, and mostly about low-hanging-fruit issues that cause real usability problems for end users. He might write and teach how to write high-performance code and high-performance architecture, but it was not to the detriment of code quality, speed of development or architecture quality. The architecture of Handmade Hero, for example, is significantly better than most "make your own engine" shows on Youtube.
  - Ygg2 5y ago
    > Yep, a gross and incorrect one, invented only to advance an argument that doesn't match reality. Performance and ms-per-frame is still highly critical in AAA-land, I beg to differ it's not an incorrect one. AAA Titles (+ if I did play them): Destiny - Review say perf OK. Elden Ring(+) - Performance Ok on consoles on release it was a slideshow. It ran like garbage. Personally I think it's a clusterfuck GTA V(+) - Had a huge performance blunder. Released for n-thienth time. Good performance today for game that was released in 2013. FIFA/NFL/Sports game - Runs ok. It's the same game as year X-1 except with some tweaks (like microtransactions and ads). Call of Duty - Review while perf is Ok, it's not something Battlefield - They were Ok, they went too loose with optimization resulting in the shitfest that was 2042. They got punished for it. Fortnite - Sure stellar work from the guys making Unreal engine no complaints. According to revenue PUBG belongs on this list. PlayerUnknown’s Battlegrounds - Barely holding itself at the seams this game made mad money while being a buggy and lice infested mess. It Pokemon - It's Ok, but nothing to write home about. Resident Evil: Village(+) - Played it. It ran like shite. Had to crack it to get decent performance. Far Cry 6 - Ok performance, but essentially Farcry X-1. With more content. --------- From examples given, while performance is usually critical for online multiplayer shooters, it's not so much being faster as being less slow than the guy next to you. E.g. PUBG was fine and dandy, even though it was really, really badly optimized. > Again, this is a bit of a misrepresentation, and probably a bit of projection. His rants are often about specific issues he finds, and mostly about low-hanging-fruit issues that cause real usability problems for end users. It's not. He compares Visual Studio 2019 to Visual Studio 6 and concludes that MSFT is staffed by idiots https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC-0tCy4P1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC-0tCy4P1U Does he compare OS support? Features present? Libs used? No. It's bad and it sucks an MSFT doesn't know to do fast software.

johnnyanmac 5y ago

>AAA titles are just rehash/sequels with latest monetization tactics tacked on. On low end you got shitty mobile games that only optimization is user conditioning ehhh. I agree with most of your sentiment, but this is starting to be the gamer version of this topic. Replace "modern software is crap" with "modern AAA games are crap". The industry is too varied to lump it all into one box, especially when several of the largest games this year came out with your normal "buy one get everything" monetization. Back on topic: I'd say optimization is still an important and under aprreciated factor of development. One where you don't notice it when it's done right but is all that's talked about when done wrong. I want to hope UE5 solves some of those problems, but the proof will be in the pudding as always.

Ygg2 5y ago
> starting to be the gamer version of this topic They are crap and getting worse on a completely different axis (social engineering). It's not all gloom and doom, people can get insensitive to strategies and good games haven't, stopped getting made. > I'd say optimization is still an important and under aprreciated factor of development I never said it didn't. I said It's not be all end all, and not optimizing is causing collapse of civilization.