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American society is built to tear people down, to make 10 people so sick that 9 of them die and then to crown the other one king. This isn't an accidental malfu

American society is built to tear people down, to make 10 people so sick that 9 of them die and then to crown the other one king. This isn't an accidental malfunction; it's the purpose of the damn thing. It starts with children. At least Scarface had the decency not to involve kids. The "career game", which now begins in childhood, is a war of attrition. Look at the people running major, Fortune 500 companies? Are they the best and the brightest? Are they our society's most talented people or its most capable leaders? Fuck no, obviously not. They're the ones who didn't develop chronic puking disorders, severe panic attacks, lifelong back problems, RSIs and socially crippling misanthropy after being thrown into a "pay-your-dues" war of attrition with hundreds of other idiots and surviving the longest in it. That's how they got where they are-- not leadership, not creativity, not any kind of talent whatsoever, but making it through more years of soul-raping corporate grunt work than their competitors could survive. We're now in a state where the constant warfare begins in fucking preschool. This is what we get. The only way out is to radically reshape society, and the problem is that there are people currently in positions of great power who will defend the status quo with everything they've got. Their problem, not ours.

Hisoka 15y ago
What is the root cause of this problem though? Is it just a natural result of overpopulation + our natural tendency to be selfish? is it overpopulation + the need to give up individual needs to support the whole? is it the natural result of our biological instincts and we're just really fucked up species?
- michaelochurch 15y ago
  Root cause? In the U.S.: bad values. Culturally speaking, the South has won the Civil War. That's why we remember Northern generals negatively and Southern ones as noble. That's also why we don't have universal healthcare (Truman proposed it in '48, and was shot down because Dixiecrats didn't want to desegregate the hospitals.) Now, the geographical distinction is not very meaningful (there are foaming-at-the-mouth racists in New England and enlightened, liberal people in Alabama) but the last bastion of the true North (the progressive, positive-sum mentality) is Silicon Valley and even that has its entrenched in-crowds. Getting access to VCs is still about connections and that's not very Northern. I'm going to anger people by saying this, but New York (although it's still one of the best places to live in the US) is essentially a Southern city at this point. What's the first thing you do every month? Pay an enormous rent check to someone who's had real estate in the family for over 100 years. What's the first thing you are asked in "casual" conversation? "What do you do?" Or, "What is your position in society?" And "those who matter" still go to cotillions and keep to themselves and shoot quail in the Hamptons. What do I mean by the South winning, culturally speaking? I mean that this is a society run according to position, authority, and entrenchment rather than the talent and courage to have and share the right ideas. The country is run by private-sector bureaucrats who've discovered ways to capture value generated from the labor of others. We're not a "really fucked up species". Humans are not naturally good or evil. They're naturally unskilled-- ignorant, deluded, and often incompetent, but not evil. The purpose of civilization is to maintain the knowledge that helps people do the right thing. Unfortunately, societies become corrupt rapidly and develop elites that have defined themselves by doing the wrong thing, and then those wrong things begin to define the social tone and corruption sets in. Civilization is a storehouse of knowledge that helps people figure out what the right thing to do is, but societies are incentive systems that usually encourage doing the wrong thing.
- iqster 15y ago
  I don't think overpopulation is the core problem in the developed world. Some developed countries have had to take on immigrants lest their populations decrease. We have great systems to generate wealth, but they come at the price of a massively skewed distribution.
Game_Ender 15y ago
Do you have any evidence for this? The closest thing about this I have read is in Freakanomics. Their research showed the relentlessly pushing young children with activities and extra studying, has little effect on average on where they will be after they are on their own for a while. I don't really know enough to say any meaningful about promotion in a large company, but a simple counter example to your entire rant is that you can get ahead in those companies by politicking. You don't have to work extra hard, or push yourself, just know the right people and push the right buttons to get the promotion.
- michaelochurch 15y ago
  a simple counter example to your entire rant is that you can get ahead in those companies by politicking. You don't have to work extra hard, or push yourself, just know the right people and push the right buttons to get the promotion. Speak for yourself. For me, it's more stressful to play politics and schmooze than it is to drop in and do 12 straight hours of solid work. Real work is fun. Greasing palms is a pain in the ass. Also, it's true that these people don't "push themselves" intellectually, but you definitely have to work very hard to create the appearances of effort, performance, and (most importantly by far) shared suffering.
Bostwick 15y ago
I disagree with your assertion that "American society is built to tear people down." In my experience, american society is built to reward entrepreneurship and creativity. For education, we have free schooling for the first 18 years of life, an extensive community college system, and, if you live in the right state, fantastic public higher education. You can educate yourself through a BA for less than the price of a car if you're willing to consistently work hard for grades. The private sector is similar. Those who have proven themselves exceptional rise in the ranks. Looking at Fortune 500 company CEOs, yes, there exist executives who are not the "best and brightest," but "there exist" does not mean "all are". By and large, I would say that most of the CEOs and their executive teams are working toward what they believe to be the best path forward for their company. As publicly-traded companies, those who hold stock in those companies act as a check on incompetent management, and companies incompetently managed have a tendency to be heavily penalized. See HP recently, and its stock price. Your rant takes a very harsh and dismissive tone towards "American society" and its political nature is not what should be discussed on Hacker News. I don't think your harsh tone, your evidence-free assertions or your conclusion ("The only way out is to radically reshape society") have a place here. Please go back to the #OccupyWallSt rallies.
- michaelochurch 15y ago
  Do yourself a favor and read this post again one year after you get out of school.

Hisoka 15y ago

What is the root cause of this problem though? Is it just a natural result of overpopulation + our natural tendency to be selfish? is it overpopulation + the need to give up individual needs to support the whole? is it the natural result of our biological instincts and we're just really fucked up species?

michaelochurch 15y ago
Root cause? In the U.S.: bad values. Culturally speaking, the South has won the Civil War. That's why we remember Northern generals negatively and Southern ones as noble. That's also why we don't have universal healthcare (Truman proposed it in '48, and was shot down because Dixiecrats didn't want to desegregate the hospitals.) Now, the geographical distinction is not very meaningful (there are foaming-at-the-mouth racists in New England and enlightened, liberal people in Alabama) but the last bastion of the true North (the progressive, positive-sum mentality) is Silicon Valley and even that has its entrenched in-crowds. Getting access to VCs is still about connections and that's not very Northern. I'm going to anger people by saying this, but New York (although it's still one of the best places to live in the US) is essentially a Southern city at this point. What's the first thing you do every month? Pay an enormous rent check to someone who's had real estate in the family for over 100 years. What's the first thing you are asked in "casual" conversation? "What do you do?" Or, "What is your position in society?" And "those who matter" still go to cotillions and keep to themselves and shoot quail in the Hamptons. What do I mean by the South winning, culturally speaking? I mean that this is a society run according to position, authority, and entrenchment rather than the talent and courage to have and share the right ideas. The country is run by private-sector bureaucrats who've discovered ways to capture value generated from the labor of others. We're not a "really fucked up species". Humans are not naturally good or evil. They're naturally unskilled-- ignorant, deluded, and often incompetent, but not evil. The purpose of civilization is to maintain the knowledge that helps people do the right thing. Unfortunately, societies become corrupt rapidly and develop elites that have defined themselves by doing the wrong thing, and then those wrong things begin to define the social tone and corruption sets in. Civilization is a storehouse of knowledge that helps people figure out what the right thing to do is, but societies are incentive systems that usually encourage doing the wrong thing.
iqster 15y ago
I don't think overpopulation is the core problem in the developed world. Some developed countries have had to take on immigrants lest their populations decrease. We have great systems to generate wealth, but they come at the price of a massively skewed distribution.

Game_Ender 15y ago

Do you have any evidence for this? The closest thing about this I have read is in Freakanomics. Their research showed the relentlessly pushing young children with activities and extra studying, has little effect on average on where they will be after they are on their own for a while. I don't really know enough to say any meaningful about promotion in a large company, but a simple counter example to your entire rant is that you can get ahead in those companies by politicking. You don't have to work extra hard, or push yourself, just know the right people and push the right buttons to get the promotion.

michaelochurch 15y ago
a simple counter example to your entire rant is that you can get ahead in those companies by politicking. You don't have to work extra hard, or push yourself, just know the right people and push the right buttons to get the promotion. Speak for yourself. For me, it's more stressful to play politics and schmooze than it is to drop in and do 12 straight hours of solid work. Real work is fun. Greasing palms is a pain in the ass. Also, it's true that these people don't "push themselves" intellectually, but you definitely have to work very hard to create the appearances of effort, performance, and (most importantly by far) shared suffering.

Bostwick 15y ago

I disagree with your assertion that "American society is built to tear people down." In my experience, american society is built to reward entrepreneurship and creativity. For education, we have free schooling for the first 18 years of life, an extensive community college system, and, if you live in the right state, fantastic public higher education. You can educate yourself through a BA for less than the price of a car if you're willing to consistently work hard for grades. The private sector is similar. Those who have proven themselves exceptional rise in the ranks. Looking at Fortune 500 company CEOs, yes, there exist executives who are not the "best and brightest," but "there exist" does not mean "all are". By and large, I would say that most of the CEOs and their executive teams are working toward what they believe to be the best path forward for their company. As publicly-traded companies, those who hold stock in those companies act as a check on incompetent management, and companies incompetently managed have a tendency to be heavily penalized. See HP recently, and its stock price. Your rant takes a very harsh and dismissive tone towards "American society" and its political nature is not what should be discussed on Hacker News. I don't think your harsh tone, your evidence-free assertions or your conclusion ("The only way out is to radically reshape society") have a place here. Please go back to the #OccupyWallSt rallies.

michaelochurch 15y ago
Do yourself a favor and read this post again one year after you get out of school.