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If he’s all about saying modern software is crap, then his opinion isn’t very good imo. I’ll say it again: I think he makes cool stuff! I just don’t think hes

by rtpg 4y ago

If he’s all about saying modern software is crap, then his opinion isn’t very good imo. I’ll say it again: I think he makes cool stuff! I just don’t think hes right about his judgement here

werner1886 4y ago
If you see his points and still disagree that's fair enough
ratww 4y ago
> If he’s all about saying modern software is crap, then his opinion isn’t very good imo. That's extremely reductionist. He's saying that modern software is crap regarding performance. And whenever he does complain, he manages to demonstrate it.
- leshow 4y ago
  What's the conclusion though? Modern software is crap so you shouldnt use any libraries and roll your own implementations of everything? Sounds like a recipe for lots of bugs.
  - ratww 4y ago
    Did you had fun knocking this strawman? Nobody said or implied that you need to eschew libraries and write everything from scratch to achieve performance, and it is frankly a very dishonest way of conducting this conversation. Especially considering that we’re talking about someone (Casey) whose previous job was pretty much selling high-performance libraries (RAD Tools). The claim from the (to be cheeky) “anti-performance” crowd is that it is impossible or unnecessary to extract more performance from modern computers. All that we’re saying is that things are not so black and white. “The conclusion”, if you need one, is that people saying that more performance is impossible or impractical as a knee-jerk response are often wrong.
    - leshow 4y ago
      If there is no conclusion then you are just un-productively saying "modern software sucks". My point is, if the claim is that modern software is bad, what do they offer as the solution to that? > The conclusion”, if you need one, is that people saying that more performance is impossible or impractical as a knee-jerk response are often wrong. This is barely a statement. I've never heard "performance is impossible" from anyone, and it's amusing you would accuse me of a strawman and then introduce one like this.
      - ratww 4y ago
        The phrase “software is crap” was said by someone criticizing Casey Muratori, not by himself or by me. It was a mischaracterization. If you want to paraphrase him correctly, he has claimed several times that there are several low-hanging-fruits performance-wise in modern software. > I've never heard "performance is impossible" from anyone First, I said “impossible or impractical”. This comment section is littered with the second. Second, this is not an exaggeration, nor refers to you. It actually happened: a FAANG product manager told Casey it would take several years and a PHd degree to fix some performance issues in a MS product that Casey had diagnosed. Casey then proceeded to create a performant proof of concept with feature parity over a weekend or so. > what do they offer as the solution to that? Are you asking for a silver bullet? Because there are none. The first step towards a solution for low performance in modern software is stopping the automatic reactions of saying performance is unnecessary, impractical or even impossible, whenever someome with enough knowledge of the problem domain claims otherwise. The path to faster software involves actual hard work, rather than attempting to publicly shame people who offer solutions. I really don’t think this is unreasonable at all.
        leshow 4y ago
        > The path to faster software involves actual hard work, rather than attempting to publicly shame people who offer solutions. Again, what solutions? Until you can define what these are I'm not sure what his position is or what he's advocating for. No offense but I've exhausted my interest in the topic, take care
  - mbesto 4y ago
    Isn't the reason that Unity/UE have crap performance because of the capabilities they offer? For example, you can run the app on multiple platforms. This is the Electron or Hybrid app argument all over again. For 95% of the applications built, the ability to launch on Win, Mac, Linux, Android and iOS far outweighs the bloat and performance hit you have. But for the few AAA titles out there, then yes supporting native support might be worthwhile. I mean, thats what modern software development is all about - tradeoffs.
    - ratww 4y ago
      > Isn't the reason that Unity/UE have crap performance because of the capabilities they offer? For example, you can run the app on multiple platforms. Is anyone, Casey or someone in this thread, complaining that Unity or Unreal have low performance? I don’t think so. Casey Muratori’s performance rants of the past were almost always about specific pieces of software and in the most public of those he managed to show how to fix those in an acceptable timeframe.
      - mbesto 4y ago
        > or someone in this thread, complaining that Unity or Unreal have low performance? I don’t think so. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31069502 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31069502 > That's extremely reductionist. He's saying that modern software is crap regarding performance. And whenever he does complain, he manages to demonstrate it. Did you even read the thread I was responding to?
        anonymoushn 4y ago
        As far as I know, UE doesn't have crap performance. Some features of Unity might have crap performance, and the solution used by studios shipping games in Unity is to not use those features or use them very carefully. I'm not GP, but I read the thread, and it seems like you think that this guy has severe performance problems with every piece of modern software, and therefor he has severe performance problems with UE and Unity. He doesn't though. If he did, he would probably publish some rant about the particular problems he has with these particular pieces of software

by rtpg 4y ago

If he’s all about saying modern software is crap, then his opinion isn’t very good imo. I’ll say it again: I think he makes cool stuff! I just don’t think hes right about his judgement here

werner1886 4y ago

If you see his points and still disagree that's fair enough

ratww 4y ago

> If he’s all about saying modern software is crap, then his opinion isn’t very good imo. That's extremely reductionist. He's saying that modern software is crap regarding performance. And whenever he does complain, he manages to demonstrate it.

leshow 4y ago
What's the conclusion though? Modern software is crap so you shouldnt use any libraries and roll your own implementations of everything? Sounds like a recipe for lots of bugs.
- ratww 4y ago
  Did you had fun knocking this strawman? Nobody said or implied that you need to eschew libraries and write everything from scratch to achieve performance, and it is frankly a very dishonest way of conducting this conversation. Especially considering that we’re talking about someone (Casey) whose previous job was pretty much selling high-performance libraries (RAD Tools). The claim from the (to be cheeky) “anti-performance” crowd is that it is impossible or unnecessary to extract more performance from modern computers. All that we’re saying is that things are not so black and white. “The conclusion”, if you need one, is that people saying that more performance is impossible or impractical as a knee-jerk response are often wrong.
  - leshow 4y ago
    If there is no conclusion then you are just un-productively saying "modern software sucks". My point is, if the claim is that modern software is bad, what do they offer as the solution to that? > The conclusion”, if you need one, is that people saying that more performance is impossible or impractical as a knee-jerk response are often wrong. This is barely a statement. I've never heard "performance is impossible" from anyone, and it's amusing you would accuse me of a strawman and then introduce one like this.
    - ratww 4y ago
      The phrase “software is crap” was said by someone criticizing Casey Muratori, not by himself or by me. It was a mischaracterization. If you want to paraphrase him correctly, he has claimed several times that there are several low-hanging-fruits performance-wise in modern software. > I've never heard "performance is impossible" from anyone First, I said “impossible or impractical”. This comment section is littered with the second. Second, this is not an exaggeration, nor refers to you. It actually happened: a FAANG product manager told Casey it would take several years and a PHd degree to fix some performance issues in a MS product that Casey had diagnosed. Casey then proceeded to create a performant proof of concept with feature parity over a weekend or so. > what do they offer as the solution to that? Are you asking for a silver bullet? Because there are none. The first step towards a solution for low performance in modern software is stopping the automatic reactions of saying performance is unnecessary, impractical or even impossible, whenever someome with enough knowledge of the problem domain claims otherwise. The path to faster software involves actual hard work, rather than attempting to publicly shame people who offer solutions. I really don’t think this is unreasonable at all.
      - leshow 4y ago
        > The path to faster software involves actual hard work, rather than attempting to publicly shame people who offer solutions. Again, what solutions? Until you can define what these are I'm not sure what his position is or what he's advocating for. No offense but I've exhausted my interest in the topic, take care
- mbesto 4y ago
  Isn't the reason that Unity/UE have crap performance because of the capabilities they offer? For example, you can run the app on multiple platforms. This is the Electron or Hybrid app argument all over again. For 95% of the applications built, the ability to launch on Win, Mac, Linux, Android and iOS far outweighs the bloat and performance hit you have. But for the few AAA titles out there, then yes supporting native support might be worthwhile. I mean, thats what modern software development is all about - tradeoffs.
  - ratww 4y ago
    > Isn't the reason that Unity/UE have crap performance because of the capabilities they offer? For example, you can run the app on multiple platforms. Is anyone, Casey or someone in this thread, complaining that Unity or Unreal have low performance? I don’t think so. Casey Muratori’s performance rants of the past were almost always about specific pieces of software and in the most public of those he managed to show how to fix those in an acceptable timeframe.
    - mbesto 4y ago
      > or someone in this thread, complaining that Unity or Unreal have low performance? I don’t think so. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31069502 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31069502 > That's extremely reductionist. He's saying that modern software is crap regarding performance. And whenever he does complain, he manages to demonstrate it. Did you even read the thread I was responding to?
      - anonymoushn 4y ago
        As far as I know, UE doesn't have crap performance. Some features of Unity might have crap performance, and the solution used by studios shipping games in Unity is to not use those features or use them very carefully. I'm not GP, but I read the thread, and it seems like you think that this guy has severe performance problems with every piece of modern software, and therefor he has severe performance problems with UE and Unity. He doesn't though. If he did, he would probably publish some rant about the particular problems he has with these particular pieces of software