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Missing a reflection about how abundance of F/OSS has pushed us towards SaaS as one of the few places left to make a living from pure software dev, and the oli

Missing a reflection about how abundance of F/OSS has pushed us towards SaaS as one of the few places left to make a living from pure software dev, and the oligopolies arising out of it. What about Linux (Android) being used as the prime spyware vector, and Linux being used for cloud lock-in (k8s et al)? Also missing a discussion about the role of open standards as opposed to open implementations, such as POSIX/LSB, picture and A/V formats for personal storage and streaming, standards for messaging, and the absence of a GNU/Browser despite the presence of so-called web standards.

fsflover 5y ago
> What about Linux (Android) being used as the prime spyware vector To deal with that, consider using GNU/Linux phone Librem 5 recommended by the FSF: https://www.fsf.org/givingguide https://www.fsf.org/givingguide. > and Linux being used for cloud lock-in What do you want to discuss here? There is always a possibility to use tools for the evil. Non-free software is used for that, too (much more).
- jdbernard 5y ago
  I've been waiting for my Librem 5 (that I paid for) for four years...
  - fsflover 5y ago
    Same here. However they do have a good reason for that now: https://forums.puri.sm/t/i-mx-8m-quad-availability-and-prices-in-2022/17014 https://forums.puri.sm/t/i-mx-8m-quad-availability-and-price....
    - jdbernard 5y ago
      Right, and I'm actually still OK with it. This was always a "it would be really nice if this was a thing" play on my end. Just calling out that it's not really the option that the parent post implied.
      - fsflover 5y ago
        It's not an option to immediately use the phone, but it's an option to support the change.
hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
> Missing a reflection about how abundance of F/OSS has pushed us towards SaaS as one of the few places left to make a living from pure software dev, and the oligopolies arising out of it. The fundamental reason is the shift towards the web as a platform, not the abundance of Free Software. As for the oligopolies you mention, the process is as democratic as possible with extremely low barrier to entry: many of the current big players weren't millionaires who had to invest piles of money into factories and wait for decades for their dreams to materialize. > What about Linux (Android) being used as the prime spyware vector, and Linux being used for cloud lock-in (k8s et al)? I don't believe RMS would object to that, he is not a Linux fanboy and concentrates on Free Software instead.
- cxr 5y ago
  Indeed, the mentioned complaints about Android are not in any sense the result of an overadherence to Stallmanist thinking (rather, the opposite...)
pmoriarty 5y ago
"abundance of F/OSS has pushed us towards SaaS as one of the few places left to make a living from pure software dev, and the oligopolies arising out of it. What about Linux (Android) being used as the prime spyware vector, and Linux being used for cloud lock-in (k8s et al)?" It's not like closed-source software would have prevented any of this.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  People actually pay for closed source software, even if piracy might happen. SaaS is the only way left to force most people to actually pay for the FOSS stuff they leach.
  - mpol 5y ago
    I don't think "force" is the right word here. More that it's an offer companies can make and customers can choose. Free software and free data are not always a concern of users, lock-in might not be the best choice long-term, but they are not being forced in any way afaik. (edit: initially I mean, after the lock-in there is force of course.)
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    People actually pay for open source software too. Take a look at Ardour for an example. Red Hat too.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Indeed, however stuff like CentOS prove how people go out of their way to avoid paying, and how they get pissed off when that option goes away. I should also note that nowadays Red-Hat belongs to IBM, so there are other forms of funding beyond support contracts for Red-Hat enterprise.
      - pmoriarty 5y ago
        CentOS was popular, but Red Hat still made billions of dollars in revenue.
larodi 5y ago
At least some people are sane enough to actually reason and try to figure the real challenge (problem) with free software. The thing is not about open or closed source, but open/closed data and standards that surround them. Not the free/not free software, but the things that actually run on your PC and those that not. And surely using cloud service, no matter built on open or closed or free or not software, will tell very little of the modifications that were done to the service and the packages. Basically I know nothing about the cloud-based mysqls, elastic searches, etc that are provisioned for me by s.o.
jrockway 5y ago
How does k8s lock you in to the cloud? The idea is that it's a replacement for things like Cloud Formation that really did lock you into AWS.
- robjan 5y ago
  Isn't Cloud Formation more like Terraform? k8s pretty much abstracts the whole cloud platform and makes it deployable anywhere (theoretically). Although practically there's usually lock-in to some managed services.
largely_sitting 5y ago
I would be fine with far less features for a platform that was simpler and standardized. Users seem to be gravitating toward the same, with short form video and a search bar being their main anchors. A reflection on complexity versus free would be nice to see. The more complex a system is, the less free it becomes by virtue of implementation time.
SkeuomorphicBee 5y ago
The move thowards SaaS started long before the rise in prominence of F/OSS, it was the creation of the Internet that was the catalyst to the rise of SaaS, nothing to do with the FOSS-vs-Proprietary fight. In fact, in the beginning of the Internet, the first wave of SaaS was all built on top of proprietary solutions, Oracle was the king, Sun Java was the up-and-coming go-to platform.

fsflover 5y ago

> What about Linux (Android) being used as the prime spyware vector To deal with that, consider using GNU/Linux phone Librem 5 recommended by the FSF: https://www.fsf.org/givingguide https://www.fsf.org/givingguide. > and Linux being used for cloud lock-in What do you want to discuss here? There is always a possibility to use tools for the evil. Non-free software is used for that, too (much more).

jdbernard 5y ago
I've been waiting for my Librem 5 (that I paid for) for four years...
- fsflover 5y ago
  Same here. However they do have a good reason for that now: https://forums.puri.sm/t/i-mx-8m-quad-availability-and-prices-in-2022/17014 https://forums.puri.sm/t/i-mx-8m-quad-availability-and-price....
  - jdbernard 5y ago
    Right, and I'm actually still OK with it. This was always a "it would be really nice if this was a thing" play on my end. Just calling out that it's not really the option that the parent post implied.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      It's not an option to immediately use the phone, but it's an option to support the change.

hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago

> Missing a reflection about how abundance of F/OSS has pushed us towards SaaS as one of the few places left to make a living from pure software dev, and the oligopolies arising out of it. The fundamental reason is the shift towards the web as a platform, not the abundance of Free Software. As for the oligopolies you mention, the process is as democratic as possible with extremely low barrier to entry: many of the current big players weren't millionaires who had to invest piles of money into factories and wait for decades for their dreams to materialize. > What about Linux (Android) being used as the prime spyware vector, and Linux being used for cloud lock-in (k8s et al)? I don't believe RMS would object to that, he is not a Linux fanboy and concentrates on Free Software instead.

cxr 5y ago
Indeed, the mentioned complaints about Android are not in any sense the result of an overadherence to Stallmanist thinking (rather, the opposite...)

pmoriarty 5y ago

"abundance of F/OSS has pushed us towards SaaS as one of the few places left to make a living from pure software dev, and the oligopolies arising out of it. What about Linux (Android) being used as the prime spyware vector, and Linux being used for cloud lock-in (k8s et al)?" It's not like closed-source software would have prevented any of this.

pjmlp 5y ago
People actually pay for closed source software, even if piracy might happen. SaaS is the only way left to force most people to actually pay for the FOSS stuff they leach.
- mpol 5y ago
  I don't think "force" is the right word here. More that it's an offer companies can make and customers can choose. Free software and free data are not always a concern of users, lock-in might not be the best choice long-term, but they are not being forced in any way afaik. (edit: initially I mean, after the lock-in there is force of course.)
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  People actually pay for open source software too. Take a look at Ardour for an example. Red Hat too.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Indeed, however stuff like CentOS prove how people go out of their way to avoid paying, and how they get pissed off when that option goes away. I should also note that nowadays Red-Hat belongs to IBM, so there are other forms of funding beyond support contracts for Red-Hat enterprise.
    - pmoriarty 5y ago
      CentOS was popular, but Red Hat still made billions of dollars in revenue.

larodi 5y ago

At least some people are sane enough to actually reason and try to figure the real challenge (problem) with free software. The thing is not about open or closed source, but open/closed data and standards that surround them. Not the free/not free software, but the things that actually run on your PC and those that not. And surely using cloud service, no matter built on open or closed or free or not software, will tell very little of the modifications that were done to the service and the packages. Basically I know nothing about the cloud-based mysqls, elastic searches, etc that are provisioned for me by s.o.

jrockway 5y ago

How does k8s lock you in to the cloud? The idea is that it's a replacement for things like Cloud Formation that really did lock you into AWS.

robjan 5y ago
Isn't Cloud Formation more like Terraform? k8s pretty much abstracts the whole cloud platform and makes it deployable anywhere (theoretically). Although practically there's usually lock-in to some managed services.

largely_sitting 5y ago

I would be fine with far less features for a platform that was simpler and standardized. Users seem to be gravitating toward the same, with short form video and a search bar being their main anchors. A reflection on complexity versus free would be nice to see. The more complex a system is, the less free it becomes by virtue of implementation time.

SkeuomorphicBee 5y ago

The move thowards SaaS started long before the rise in prominence of F/OSS, it was the creation of the Internet that was the catalyst to the rise of SaaS, nothing to do with the FOSS-vs-Proprietary fight. In fact, in the beginning of the Internet, the first wave of SaaS was all built on top of proprietary solutions, Oracle was the king, Sun Java was the up-and-coming go-to platform.