4 ms·

I'd be very interested in a city builder where there are meaningful social, cultural, and political dimensions. Games like SimCity and Cities: Skylines have rob

I'd be very interested in a city builder where there are meaningful social, cultural, and political dimensions. Games like SimCity and Cities: Skylines have robust, detailed models for aspects like traffic and power distribution, but the actual social modeling is relatively basic. At points they seem more like complex cellular automata than cities (see Magnasanti in SimCity 3k)

hutattedonmyarm 4y ago
I think Pharaoh does a good job at that, although it is quite old. Currently getting a remake though. Cultures: 8th Wonder of The World is leaning heavily into the society aspect as well. However I did find the controls to be extremely irritating by today’s standards
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  That's funny... I never heard about Pharaoh until last night when I read a retrospective (1),and now I read about it first thing in the morning :-) 1: https://scientificgamer.com/in-praise-of-pharaoh/ https://scientificgamer.com/in-praise-of-pharaoh/
- steve_coral 4y ago
  Yes, something that has the in-depth city building mechanics of SimCity with the social modeling of Pharaoh, Caesar, or Europa 1400: The Guild would be incredible.
  - zo1 4y ago
    Don't forget Zeus in that list! Think it was the third iteration in the Caesar->Pharaoh-> city-building genre.
  - mikepurvis 4y ago
    Were the later Caesar games better for that stuff? I remember playing Caesar II back in the day, and even as a kid feeling that it was a bit on the shallow side— like the main objective at city level was just to get as much tax revenue as possible, and that meant getting your housing to be more luxurious, and that meant exposing the housing to as many amenities as possible. But the exposure was basically just making sure there was enough of everything close by that the walkers spawned by each building would find their way to each residence before their previous visit had "worn off".
xorcist 4y ago
City simulators seems to a large extent exist to reinforce the idea that cities == cars. It bores me.
- pjerem 4y ago
  Cities Skylines have a good walking and cycling modeling alongside an excellent public transport system. You can totally create a city with really little trafic. Even industrial trafic can be done essentially via rail or via seaway. It seems that most (all?) actors in the game will prefer your infrastructures over the road as long as they are more efficient. You can now even add toll gates on the road to make the incentive even stronger.
- poser-boy 4y ago
  That because most cities right now are road/car-based. Maybe once Cytopia is further developed walk-able cities can be designed.
- mikepurvis 4y ago
  As the sibling says, Cities Skylines definitely does a better job than its predecessors of legitimizing non-car strategies for managing transportation. However, as the player, the path of least resistance is absolutely to just do roads everywhere and bulldoze buildings and houses to widen roads (just like in the real world). I don't think CS has much/any modeling for the longer-time-horizon benefits of an active-transportation city, in terms of culture, health, pollution reduction, and so on. So yes, it's a major step forward in terms of it being possible at all, but it's something you have to be pretty intentional about— and maybe that's reflective of the real world too. But it's always nice when media (games, books, movies, whatever) inspires us to dream bigger than we might otherwise have done.
- speeder 4y ago
  I am a fan of city simulators and I found out the reason for this is all of them copy the USA style zoning system in their rules. USA style zoning is just stupid and is a major culprit of cities needing cars. As far as I know there is no major city simulator that simulates non-zoned cities that are full of organic growth instead of the player, like a US mayor, deciding where people are allowed and not allowed to live and work.
staindk 4y ago
The Tropico games may interest you. I had a lot of fun playing them when I was younger (think I played Tropico 1 and 3, but not sure exactly). I recall them being quite tricky and including political/social aspects (you need to appease your people to be re-elected etc), but since I haven't played them in years that stuff might not be as deep as I remember. Do have a look though and see if it'll suit you!
- mikepurvis 4y ago
  I played some Tropico 4 and 5 in recent years and had a decent time of it. I think I ended up in a love/hate relationship with the mission structure, though. On the one hand, having a series of shorter "scenarios" with concrete goals is good for gameplay and helps give shape to the overall game in a way that old-school endless city builders lacked, plus it fits with the deeply cynical lore of the game, about you playing as a wannabe dictator bouncing between banana republics and doing the bare minimum to keep them afloat as you line your own pockets by sending cash to the Swiss bank account. But that structure also meant that I struggled to feel as much long-term ownership over what I was creating. It felt like I could get away with cutting certain corners that I shouldn't have if the game forced me to sit just a little bit longer with the consequences of my actions. Maybe that's just a sign that I was playing it right, but I felt like I would have had a better time if I'd been just a little bit more accountable.
Renaud 4y ago
>'d be very interested in a city builder where there are meaningful social, cultural, and political dimensions. You may be interested in CityState II: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1352850/Citystate_II/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1352850/Citystate_II/

hutattedonmyarm 4y ago

I think Pharaoh does a good job at that, although it is quite old. Currently getting a remake though. Cultures: 8th Wonder of The World is leaning heavily into the society aspect as well. However I did find the controls to be extremely irritating by today’s standards

NikolaNovak 4y ago
That's funny... I never heard about Pharaoh until last night when I read a retrospective (1),and now I read about it first thing in the morning :-) 1: https://scientificgamer.com/in-praise-of-pharaoh/ https://scientificgamer.com/in-praise-of-pharaoh/
steve_coral 4y ago
Yes, something that has the in-depth city building mechanics of SimCity with the social modeling of Pharaoh, Caesar, or Europa 1400: The Guild would be incredible.
- zo1 4y ago
  Don't forget Zeus in that list! Think it was the third iteration in the Caesar->Pharaoh-> city-building genre.
- mikepurvis 4y ago
  Were the later Caesar games better for that stuff? I remember playing Caesar II back in the day, and even as a kid feeling that it was a bit on the shallow side— like the main objective at city level was just to get as much tax revenue as possible, and that meant getting your housing to be more luxurious, and that meant exposing the housing to as many amenities as possible. But the exposure was basically just making sure there was enough of everything close by that the walkers spawned by each building would find their way to each residence before their previous visit had "worn off".

xorcist 4y ago

City simulators seems to a large extent exist to reinforce the idea that cities == cars. It bores me.

pjerem 4y ago
Cities Skylines have a good walking and cycling modeling alongside an excellent public transport system. You can totally create a city with really little trafic. Even industrial trafic can be done essentially via rail or via seaway. It seems that most (all?) actors in the game will prefer your infrastructures over the road as long as they are more efficient. You can now even add toll gates on the road to make the incentive even stronger.
poser-boy 4y ago
That because most cities right now are road/car-based. Maybe once Cytopia is further developed walk-able cities can be designed.
mikepurvis 4y ago
As the sibling says, Cities Skylines definitely does a better job than its predecessors of legitimizing non-car strategies for managing transportation. However, as the player, the path of least resistance is absolutely to just do roads everywhere and bulldoze buildings and houses to widen roads (just like in the real world). I don't think CS has much/any modeling for the longer-time-horizon benefits of an active-transportation city, in terms of culture, health, pollution reduction, and so on. So yes, it's a major step forward in terms of it being possible at all, but it's something you have to be pretty intentional about— and maybe that's reflective of the real world too. But it's always nice when media (games, books, movies, whatever) inspires us to dream bigger than we might otherwise have done.
speeder 4y ago
I am a fan of city simulators and I found out the reason for this is all of them copy the USA style zoning system in their rules. USA style zoning is just stupid and is a major culprit of cities needing cars. As far as I know there is no major city simulator that simulates non-zoned cities that are full of organic growth instead of the player, like a US mayor, deciding where people are allowed and not allowed to live and work.

staindk 4y ago

The Tropico games may interest you. I had a lot of fun playing them when I was younger (think I played Tropico 1 and 3, but not sure exactly). I recall them being quite tricky and including political/social aspects (you need to appease your people to be re-elected etc), but since I haven't played them in years that stuff might not be as deep as I remember. Do have a look though and see if it'll suit you!

mikepurvis 4y ago
I played some Tropico 4 and 5 in recent years and had a decent time of it. I think I ended up in a love/hate relationship with the mission structure, though. On the one hand, having a series of shorter "scenarios" with concrete goals is good for gameplay and helps give shape to the overall game in a way that old-school endless city builders lacked, plus it fits with the deeply cynical lore of the game, about you playing as a wannabe dictator bouncing between banana republics and doing the bare minimum to keep them afloat as you line your own pockets by sending cash to the Swiss bank account. But that structure also meant that I struggled to feel as much long-term ownership over what I was creating. It felt like I could get away with cutting certain corners that I shouldn't have if the game forced me to sit just a little bit longer with the consequences of my actions. Maybe that's just a sign that I was playing it right, but I felt like I would have had a better time if I'd been just a little bit more accountable.

Renaud 4y ago

>'d be very interested in a city builder where there are meaningful social, cultural, and political dimensions. You may be interested in CityState II: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1352850/Citystate_II/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1352850/Citystate_II/