5 ms·

The harsh Shanghai lockdown is the end game

8 points by memish 5y ago

s3p 5y ago
Very interesting to think about. Being more left-leaning myself, it makes me wonder whether there was some truth to accusations of US lockdowns being the beginning of a slippery-slope of power grabs. I'm not concerned, but I might be if I lived overseas.
- RyanShook 5y ago
  “Suppress your soul’s desire for freedom…” -part of the message being broadcast by drones in Shanghai. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2022/china-shanghai-covid-lockdown-food-shortage/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2022/china-...
- smt88 5y ago
  Any and every horror is possible under a dictatorship and much less likely in a democracy. If you want to continue to be "not concerned because I don't live outside the US," then you should be alarmed at anti-democratic trends here and start putting real work into protecting our checks and balances -- even if it means "your team" doesn't win as many elections. A good example is rampant gerrymandering, which is unacceptable whether it's Democrats or Republicans doing it.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  If you're already under an authoritarian government, I'm not sure that Covid lockdowns are a slippery slope to a power grab. The power has already been grabbed.
- oceanghost 5y ago
  To be polite, this argument has never made any sense. There is nothing to be gained from having everyone stay home unless you're a sadist and a stupid one at that. Imagine what this exercise of "power" has netted this imaginary Batman villain-- A civil rights revolution and a workers rights revolution, and commonplace acceptance of democratic socialism because people can see that our current economic system simply isn't working for them, and the groundwork for nationalized healthcare has been laid. The powers that be want a society where nobody has any choice but to participate in a society that funnels wealth and power towards them. I'd argue they had much more of that before the lock-downs than after. China is in a different situation. The CCP's value proposition has always been "You give up rights in return for security and economic prosperity." The absolute debacle of the pandemic has highlighted just how crappy this bargain is. The pandemic literally invalidates the entire idealogical foundation of the CCP.
  - dirtyid 5y ago
    > The pandemic literally invalidates the entire idea logical foundation of the CCP. This is nonsense. PRC zero covid = lowest deaths, highest economic growth rate during covid for major economy. Even now most of PRC is SUPPORTIVE of SH lockdown, most of country i.e. (95% living basically covid free for last 2 years) blame privileged, coddled tier1 entitlement for experimenting with dynamic zero for short term profits that put rest of country in danger... most provinces contained omicron fine, including large omicron outbreaks like Jilin and Shenzhen. CCP is flexing its legitimacy more than ever. Especially when rest of the world systemically incapable of covid zero and has to resign to living with virus because their system is "weak".
    - oceanghost 5y ago
      If you believe the CCP's nonsense statistics and numbers, then yes your argument carries water. But the world does not believe anything the CCP publishes.
      - dirtyid 5y ago
        You mean the world that uses PRC vaccines with stats that comports with CCP numbers. Or the world's supply chains that runs on CCP numbers being within ball park. The world uses oblique indicators to verify CCP numbers which are useful and predictive, which is what matters at end of day.
dundarious 5y ago
It should be noted that Shanghai consciously diverged from standard lockdown policy in advance of this crisis (check the article date): https://www.rfi.fr/en/shanghai-won-t-lock-down-despite-covid-spike-official https://www.rfi.fr/en/shanghai-won-t-lock-down-despite-covid... It’s quite possible that failing to strictly adhere to early lockdown was the proximate cause, and that doubling down on the policy is an appropriate solution. Another indicator for this is that other large cities/conurbations have successfully weathered the Omicron wave. So this apparent policy failure may have been caused by Shanghai trying a blended approach, similar to much of Europe, and that didn’t work.
- nabla9 5y ago
  It's not an appropriate solution. Chinese don't use Western vaccines and their own vaccines are not that effective. Elderly are poorly vaccinated and there is no big effort to increase vaccination rates fro them. Either Chinese separate themselves from the rest of the world forever, or it's constant lockdown with these new variants.
  - dundarious 5y ago
    Shanghai should not be the benchmark is the point. Use the lockdown severity of other Chinese cities to make that point.

8 points by memish 5y ago

s3p 5y ago

Very interesting to think about. Being more left-leaning myself, it makes me wonder whether there was some truth to accusations of US lockdowns being the beginning of a slippery-slope of power grabs. I'm not concerned, but I might be if I lived overseas.

RyanShook 5y ago
“Suppress your soul’s desire for freedom…” -part of the message being broadcast by drones in Shanghai. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2022/china-shanghai-covid-lockdown-food-shortage/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2022/china-...
smt88 5y ago
Any and every horror is possible under a dictatorship and much less likely in a democracy. If you want to continue to be "not concerned because I don't live outside the US," then you should be alarmed at anti-democratic trends here and start putting real work into protecting our checks and balances -- even if it means "your team" doesn't win as many elections. A good example is rampant gerrymandering, which is unacceptable whether it's Democrats or Republicans doing it.
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
If you're already under an authoritarian government, I'm not sure that Covid lockdowns are a slippery slope to a power grab. The power has already been grabbed.
oceanghost 5y ago
To be polite, this argument has never made any sense. There is nothing to be gained from having everyone stay home unless you're a sadist and a stupid one at that. Imagine what this exercise of "power" has netted this imaginary Batman villain-- A civil rights revolution and a workers rights revolution, and commonplace acceptance of democratic socialism because people can see that our current economic system simply isn't working for them, and the groundwork for nationalized healthcare has been laid. The powers that be want a society where nobody has any choice but to participate in a society that funnels wealth and power towards them. I'd argue they had much more of that before the lock-downs than after. China is in a different situation. The CCP's value proposition has always been "You give up rights in return for security and economic prosperity." The absolute debacle of the pandemic has highlighted just how crappy this bargain is. The pandemic literally invalidates the entire idealogical foundation of the CCP.
- dirtyid 5y ago
  > The pandemic literally invalidates the entire idea logical foundation of the CCP. This is nonsense. PRC zero covid = lowest deaths, highest economic growth rate during covid for major economy. Even now most of PRC is SUPPORTIVE of SH lockdown, most of country i.e. (95% living basically covid free for last 2 years) blame privileged, coddled tier1 entitlement for experimenting with dynamic zero for short term profits that put rest of country in danger... most provinces contained omicron fine, including large omicron outbreaks like Jilin and Shenzhen. CCP is flexing its legitimacy more than ever. Especially when rest of the world systemically incapable of covid zero and has to resign to living with virus because their system is "weak".
  - oceanghost 5y ago
    If you believe the CCP's nonsense statistics and numbers, then yes your argument carries water. But the world does not believe anything the CCP publishes.
    - dirtyid 5y ago
      You mean the world that uses PRC vaccines with stats that comports with CCP numbers. Or the world's supply chains that runs on CCP numbers being within ball park. The world uses oblique indicators to verify CCP numbers which are useful and predictive, which is what matters at end of day.

dundarious 5y ago

It should be noted that Shanghai consciously diverged from standard lockdown policy in advance of this crisis (check the article date): https://www.rfi.fr/en/shanghai-won-t-lock-down-despite-covid-spike-official https://www.rfi.fr/en/shanghai-won-t-lock-down-despite-covid... It’s quite possible that failing to strictly adhere to early lockdown was the proximate cause, and that doubling down on the policy is an appropriate solution. Another indicator for this is that other large cities/conurbations have successfully weathered the Omicron wave. So this apparent policy failure may have been caused by Shanghai trying a blended approach, similar to much of Europe, and that didn’t work.

nabla9 5y ago
It's not an appropriate solution. Chinese don't use Western vaccines and their own vaccines are not that effective. Elderly are poorly vaccinated and there is no big effort to increase vaccination rates fro them. Either Chinese separate themselves from the rest of the world forever, or it's constant lockdown with these new variants.
- dundarious 5y ago
  Shanghai should not be the benchmark is the point. Use the lockdown severity of other Chinese cities to make that point.