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I really wish they'd give an example of whatever content they're talking about. Like when I took math in K-12 one thing I remember is they'd always try to be m

I really wish they'd give an example of whatever content they're talking about. Like when I took math in K-12 one thing I remember is they'd always try to be multicultural with the names in word problems and didn't just use generic white names like "John", "Adam", etc. If THIS is what they're referring to as CRT, then who cares? They could do something more, like the problems listed here: https://www.radicalmath.org/post/addressing-systemic-racism-s-impact-on-food-insecurity https://www.radicalmath.org/post/addressing-systemic-racism-... For example, something like this: "Given population estimates, how many people from each racial group are likely experiencing food insecurity across the U.S.? In your city/state?" I don't think there's anything bad about this as long as the data is genuine. But I'd love to hear from someone of a different opinion

Ferrotin 5y ago
The definition of “food security” is a propagandistic construct. > What accounts for the differences in rates by race? Yes let’s ask questions too spicy for Hacker News in public school math class.
- derevaunseraun 5y ago
  > The definition of “food security” is a propagandistic construct. Not necessarily. Families that rely on food stamps to survive could be considered to have poor food security. How exactly is that propaganda?
  - yes_really 5y ago
    Most of the people outside the US would read "food insecurity" as "there's a sizable possibility that one will starve".
- mangoTangoBango 5y ago
  Is the obesity rates in the United Sates also a “propagandistic construct”?
  - Ferrotin 5y ago
    Obesity rates and malnutrition are actually relevant objective statistics. Food insecurity was invented because poor Americans are fat.
upsidesinclude 5y ago
It's odd you don't see something bad there. The reality we should hope for would ask the question of how many Americans or Floridians are food insecure, not how many of this race or that. Race is a political tool and that's about it. Culture is what makes people.
- derevaunseraun 5y ago
  > The reality we should hope for would ask the question of how many Americans or Floridians are food insecure, not how many of this race or that. Well yes and no. No American should experience food insecurity, but also some demographics experience more food insecurity than others.
- manicdee 5y ago
  It’s odd that you don’t instantly recognise your objection as whitewashing. Covering up problems by referring to state-level statistics instead of looking at demographics is racist propaganda. Race is indeed a political tool, as are efforts to ignore it.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - fluoridation 5y ago
    Is it possible that mathematics should be taught dispassionately, without resorting to inflammatory examples? Surely anyone can trivially come up with dozens of questions to use in a statistics problem that wouldn't raise any eyebrows. If so, the fact that someone would choose that specific question should call into question the motivation behind it.
    - derevaunseraun 5y ago
      Why does it raise eyebrows? What about this question raises eyebrows if it indicates actual socioeconomic divisions in society? Do you just wanna pretend that those differences aren't there? These examples aren't inflammatory unless you're in denial
hirundo 5y ago
I think that math problems should be carefully drafted to be as neutral as possible, and not used as vectors of indoctrination other than the mathematical. A word problem requires non-relevant noise, but it is as distracting for that noise to contain a social message as a commercial advertisement. And for it to carry a controversial social message will cause friction in an institution that includes all political tribes, which detracts from the non-ideological education mission.
- derevaunseraun 5y ago
  I think that math is useful and worthwhile in so far as it applies to real world problems. The point of doing word problems isn't to distract kids with "non-relevant noise", but to indicate that the things they are learning have a practical application in everyday life I don't think this word problem carries a social message, it just puts data in front of students and asks them to compare different categories. There would be a social message if the problem was normative, like "because these differences exist, ___ is the answer". But that kind of thinking isn't really math, it would be better suited to something like social studies or language arts
  - fluoridation 5y ago
    >The point of doing word problems isn't to distract kids with "non-relevant noise", but to indicate that the things they are learning have a practical application in everyday life Figuring out "how many people from each racial group are likely experiencing food insecurity across the U.S." is an everyday problem? >I don't think this word problem carries a social message, it just puts data in front of students and asks them to compare different categories. The message is not in the question itself or in the data, but in the fact that this particular question was chosen in favor of any other. Would you think I don't have any ulterior motive if I asked "these are the arrest statistics across the US, tabulated by race. What conclusions can be drawn from this?"?
    - derevaunseraun 5y ago
      > Figuring out "how many people from each racial group are likely experiencing food insecurity across the U.S." is an everyday problem? It's more of an everyday problem than just giving students unlabeled categories. > Would you think I don't have any ulterior motive if I asked "these are the arrest statistics across the US, tabulated by race. What conclusions can be drawn from this?"? If by "ulterior motive" you mean raising awareness about different socioeconomic cohorts in American society, I have no issue with those kinds of motives. If the stance was more aggressive e.g. "you need to draw these conclusions from these numbers and support this kind of policy", that's essentially indoctrination and we can both agree that it's out of place in any genuine education. But just raising awareness about different demographics and socioeconomic groups and encouraging discussion (in a way that's open, socratic, with minimal teacher intervention): this I have no issue with.
yes_really 5y ago
Would you have the same opinion if instead of "how many people from each racial group are likely experiencing food insecurity across the U.S.?" it was "committing crimes" or "receiving welfare"?
- derevaunseraun 5y ago
  No because it could lead to bullying in the classroom For the record, if it was a question about hate crimes or serial killers I would also oppose it for the exact same reason
  - Ferrotin 5y ago
    But being incapable of providing for yourself and your family wouldn’t?
  - yes_really 5y ago
    So if it didn't lead to bullying in the classroom you would be in favor of having those questions in the math textbooks?
  - MathCodeLove 5y ago
    Do you think that the food insecurity example may not produce a feeling of pity towards minority students, and a feeling of rejection in the minority students themselves? The problem with this isn't the facts being presented, but the fact that when these sort of facts are needlessly inserted into every possible area of a child's education that child will then have a fundamentally different outlook and racial division will only rise as these differences are expounded
    - derevaunseraun 5y ago
      > Do you think that the food insecurity example may not produce a feeling of pity towards minority students, and a feeling of rejection in the minority students themselves? It could. I don't disagree with this objection, but at the same time this argument isn't just confined to math but also other subjects. I think that trying to cover up current socioeconomic divisions is on par with covering up less tasteful parts of US history, both are whitewashing. The world isn't perfect, we shouldn't pretend that it is > The problem with this isn't the facts being presented, but the fact that when these sort of facts are needlessly inserted into every possible area of a child's education that child will then have a fundamentally different outlook and racial division will only rise as these differences are expounded I wouldn't describe acknowledging things that elicit discomfort as "needless insertions". Also they aren't inserted everywhere (as far as I know...) I don't think acknowledging a situation will necessarily exacerbate it. I think the first step to moving beyond a situation is acknowledging it

Ferrotin 5y ago

The definition of “food security” is a propagandistic construct. > What accounts for the differences in rates by race? Yes let’s ask questions too spicy for Hacker News in public school math class.

derevaunseraun 5y ago
> The definition of “food security” is a propagandistic construct. Not necessarily. Families that rely on food stamps to survive could be considered to have poor food security. How exactly is that propaganda?
- yes_really 5y ago
  Most of the people outside the US would read "food insecurity" as "there's a sizable possibility that one will starve".
mangoTangoBango 5y ago
Is the obesity rates in the United Sates also a “propagandistic construct”?
- Ferrotin 5y ago
  Obesity rates and malnutrition are actually relevant objective statistics. Food insecurity was invented because poor Americans are fat.

upsidesinclude 5y ago

It's odd you don't see something bad there. The reality we should hope for would ask the question of how many Americans or Floridians are food insecure, not how many of this race or that. Race is a political tool and that's about it. Culture is what makes people.

derevaunseraun 5y ago
> The reality we should hope for would ask the question of how many Americans or Floridians are food insecure, not how many of this race or that. Well yes and no. No American should experience food insecurity, but also some demographics experience more food insecurity than others.
manicdee 5y ago
It’s odd that you don’t instantly recognise your objection as whitewashing. Covering up problems by referring to state-level statistics instead of looking at demographics is racist propaganda. Race is indeed a political tool, as are efforts to ignore it.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- fluoridation 5y ago
  Is it possible that mathematics should be taught dispassionately, without resorting to inflammatory examples? Surely anyone can trivially come up with dozens of questions to use in a statistics problem that wouldn't raise any eyebrows. If so, the fact that someone would choose that specific question should call into question the motivation behind it.
  - derevaunseraun 5y ago
    Why does it raise eyebrows? What about this question raises eyebrows if it indicates actual socioeconomic divisions in society? Do you just wanna pretend that those differences aren't there? These examples aren't inflammatory unless you're in denial

hirundo 5y ago

I think that math problems should be carefully drafted to be as neutral as possible, and not used as vectors of indoctrination other than the mathematical. A word problem requires non-relevant noise, but it is as distracting for that noise to contain a social message as a commercial advertisement. And for it to carry a controversial social message will cause friction in an institution that includes all political tribes, which detracts from the non-ideological education mission.

derevaunseraun 5y ago
I think that math is useful and worthwhile in so far as it applies to real world problems. The point of doing word problems isn't to distract kids with "non-relevant noise", but to indicate that the things they are learning have a practical application in everyday life I don't think this word problem carries a social message, it just puts data in front of students and asks them to compare different categories. There would be a social message if the problem was normative, like "because these differences exist, ___ is the answer". But that kind of thinking isn't really math, it would be better suited to something like social studies or language arts
- fluoridation 5y ago
  >The point of doing word problems isn't to distract kids with "non-relevant noise", but to indicate that the things they are learning have a practical application in everyday life Figuring out "how many people from each racial group are likely experiencing food insecurity across the U.S." is an everyday problem? >I don't think this word problem carries a social message, it just puts data in front of students and asks them to compare different categories. The message is not in the question itself or in the data, but in the fact that this particular question was chosen in favor of any other. Would you think I don't have any ulterior motive if I asked "these are the arrest statistics across the US, tabulated by race. What conclusions can be drawn from this?"?
  - derevaunseraun 5y ago
    > Figuring out "how many people from each racial group are likely experiencing food insecurity across the U.S." is an everyday problem? It's more of an everyday problem than just giving students unlabeled categories. > Would you think I don't have any ulterior motive if I asked "these are the arrest statistics across the US, tabulated by race. What conclusions can be drawn from this?"? If by "ulterior motive" you mean raising awareness about different socioeconomic cohorts in American society, I have no issue with those kinds of motives. If the stance was more aggressive e.g. "you need to draw these conclusions from these numbers and support this kind of policy", that's essentially indoctrination and we can both agree that it's out of place in any genuine education. But just raising awareness about different demographics and socioeconomic groups and encouraging discussion (in a way that's open, socratic, with minimal teacher intervention): this I have no issue with.

yes_really 5y ago

Would you have the same opinion if instead of "how many people from each racial group are likely experiencing food insecurity across the U.S.?" it was "committing crimes" or "receiving welfare"?

derevaunseraun 5y ago
No because it could lead to bullying in the classroom For the record, if it was a question about hate crimes or serial killers I would also oppose it for the exact same reason
- Ferrotin 5y ago
  But being incapable of providing for yourself and your family wouldn’t?
- yes_really 5y ago
  So if it didn't lead to bullying in the classroom you would be in favor of having those questions in the math textbooks?
- MathCodeLove 5y ago
  Do you think that the food insecurity example may not produce a feeling of pity towards minority students, and a feeling of rejection in the minority students themselves? The problem with this isn't the facts being presented, but the fact that when these sort of facts are needlessly inserted into every possible area of a child's education that child will then have a fundamentally different outlook and racial division will only rise as these differences are expounded
  - derevaunseraun 5y ago
    > Do you think that the food insecurity example may not produce a feeling of pity towards minority students, and a feeling of rejection in the minority students themselves? It could. I don't disagree with this objection, but at the same time this argument isn't just confined to math but also other subjects. I think that trying to cover up current socioeconomic divisions is on par with covering up less tasteful parts of US history, both are whitewashing. The world isn't perfect, we shouldn't pretend that it is > The problem with this isn't the facts being presented, but the fact that when these sort of facts are needlessly inserted into every possible area of a child's education that child will then have a fundamentally different outlook and racial division will only rise as these differences are expounded I wouldn't describe acknowledging things that elicit discomfort as "needless insertions". Also they aren't inserted everywhere (as far as I know...) I don't think acknowledging a situation will necessarily exacerbate it. I think the first step to moving beyond a situation is acknowledging it