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Speaking of criminal prosecutors, I'm binging Law and Order (the OG). I completely understand it's a dramatization of real life but I never understood how compl

Speaking of criminal prosecutors, I'm binging Law and Order (the OG). I completely understand it's a dramatization of real life but I never understood how complex the process is and how much they actually lose. You'd think the State/People have the upper hand at every turn and most of the time they do, but the amount of process, discovery and overcoming the reasonable doubt burden on their (relatively) limited budgets is a marvel. I know he's fake but I have a ton of respect for the Jack McCoys of the world.

brokenodometer 5y ago
Prosecutors do a lot of work, but the idea that they lose a lot is questionable. In the federal system, more than 90% of defendants plead guilty, and only around 1% of defendants take a case to trial and ultimately win. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/11/only-2-of-federal-criminal-defendants-go-to-trial-and-most-who-do-are-found-guilty/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/11/only-2-of-f... The numbers in state courts may vary, but in NY they are similar to the federal system. https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/New_York_State_Trial_Penalty_Report_FINAL_03262021.pdf https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/New_... Obviously a guilty plea still requires work, and maybe a lot of it. But in terms of outcomes, they rarely lose.
- halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
  Yes true, I was more thinking when things went to trial. Pleas make up a large share of outcomes. I was just more surprised at how badly things can go wrong in the process which ends up with a dismissal or acquittal; whether that's police process, evidentiary, testimony, etc.
  - Clubber 5y ago
    The troubling part is the prime tactic is to get people to plea. One of the methods employed is to massively overcharge where the defendant is looking at say 20 years if they lose at trial vs 5 years if they plea. Most people plea, even if they are innocent. Many prosecutors overcharge even when they have a weak case. It's not justice, it's the system protecting its existence.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      It's estimated 2-10% of the incarcerated population is innocent or wrongly convicted.
      - Clubber 5y ago
        Yes and I believe that is death row inmates who's conviction gets a lot of scrutiny. Imagine how many inmates who plead to get a lighter sentence who were facing 20 years for something they didn't do. As far as the government is concerned, a guilty plea is a win, regardless of actual action. They get to show that they deserve their jobs.
- rahimnathwani 5y ago
  "Obviously a guilty plea still requires work, and maybe a lot of it. But in terms of outcomes, they rarely lose." Right, but this is the result of: 1. Selection bias (prosecutors only prosecute a case they have a great chance of winning). 2. Negotiation (prosecutors will charge for lesser crimes than those they believe were committed, in order to gain agreement to a plea deal). The percentage alone doesn't tell you much about how hard it is to gain a conviction. It tells you a lot about how willing prosecutors are to prosecute a case that they may not be able to win.
NhanH 5y ago
Most defendant can’t even afford a couple hundreds (thousands?) dollar in term of extra resources (this includes non-monetary aspects like their own time) to defend themselves. So no matter how limited the budget of a department is, the State would still outbudget the defendant by several orders of magnitude, so don’t feel too bad for them. (I don’t disagree with you, just adding a small point)

brokenodometer 5y ago

Prosecutors do a lot of work, but the idea that they lose a lot is questionable. In the federal system, more than 90% of defendants plead guilty, and only around 1% of defendants take a case to trial and ultimately win. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/11/only-2-of-federal-criminal-defendants-go-to-trial-and-most-who-do-are-found-guilty/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/11/only-2-of-f... The numbers in state courts may vary, but in NY they are similar to the federal system. https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/New_York_State_Trial_Penalty_Report_FINAL_03262021.pdf https://www.law.umich.edu/special/exoneration/Documents/New_... Obviously a guilty plea still requires work, and maybe a lot of it. But in terms of outcomes, they rarely lose.

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
Yes true, I was more thinking when things went to trial. Pleas make up a large share of outcomes. I was just more surprised at how badly things can go wrong in the process which ends up with a dismissal or acquittal; whether that's police process, evidentiary, testimony, etc.
- Clubber 5y ago
  The troubling part is the prime tactic is to get people to plea. One of the methods employed is to massively overcharge where the defendant is looking at say 20 years if they lose at trial vs 5 years if they plea. Most people plea, even if they are innocent. Many prosecutors overcharge even when they have a weak case. It's not justice, it's the system protecting its existence.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    It's estimated 2-10% of the incarcerated population is innocent or wrongly convicted.
    - Clubber 5y ago
      Yes and I believe that is death row inmates who's conviction gets a lot of scrutiny. Imagine how many inmates who plead to get a lighter sentence who were facing 20 years for something they didn't do. As far as the government is concerned, a guilty plea is a win, regardless of actual action. They get to show that they deserve their jobs.
rahimnathwani 5y ago
"Obviously a guilty plea still requires work, and maybe a lot of it. But in terms of outcomes, they rarely lose." Right, but this is the result of: 1. Selection bias (prosecutors only prosecute a case they have a great chance of winning). 2. Negotiation (prosecutors will charge for lesser crimes than those they believe were committed, in order to gain agreement to a plea deal). The percentage alone doesn't tell you much about how hard it is to gain a conviction. It tells you a lot about how willing prosecutors are to prosecute a case that they may not be able to win.

NhanH 5y ago

Most defendant can’t even afford a couple hundreds (thousands?) dollar in term of extra resources (this includes non-monetary aspects like their own time) to defend themselves. So no matter how limited the budget of a department is, the State would still outbudget the defendant by several orders of magnitude, so don’t feel too bad for them. (I don’t disagree with you, just adding a small point)