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Reminds me of how Flint, Michigan people got their pipe water replaced with lead-polluted Flint river water, and the water systems have not been fixed to this d

Reminds me of how Flint, Michigan people got their pipe water replaced with lead-polluted Flint river water, and the water systems have not been fixed to this day (there was some work, but much remains to be done), nor have the people responsible been charged with any serious offenses. And IIANM, they're not getting healthcare for their lead-exposure-related condition either. Anyway... > Most of the surveyed residents prioritized cash payments as compensation. But that’s likely not going to happen because Mayor Mike Duggan’s administration insists that state law prohibits the city from providing cash payments or tax credits to any of the overtaxed residents. 1. I doubt it. 2. Even if that were state law, the mayor must uphold his federal and state constitutional obligations in spite or this law. > Activists say they disagree and are calling on Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel to give her legal opinion. We're talking about 100,000 people. If they just twiddle their thumbs and expect some government lawyers to side with them, they'll probably be waiting a whole lot longer. They should organize, lay siege to city hall and the mayor's house, and threaten further escalation, until the money is deposited in their accounts and whatever other additional measures have been taken.

nullc 5y ago
> replaced with lead-polluted Flint river water, XKCD386: The river water was not lead-polluted. The river water replaced Detroit sourced water which had been treated with orthophosphate, which inhibits corrosion. Without the corrosion inhibitor lead was leached from water pipes (largely in lateral lines and in people's homes). > nor have the people responsible been charged with any serious offenses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis#Criminal_prosecutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis#Criminal_pr...
- coryrc 5y ago
  > Fifteen criminal cases have been filed against local and state officials,[17] but only one minor conviction has been obtained, and all other charges have been dismissed or dropped. But the guy with authority (local elected mayor, not the state emergency manager) and the engineers/technicians/??? who made the choice not to use corrosion inhibitor, which actually caused the problem, haven't been charged (or the Glasgow guy get let off?) to go after political targets instead and state people who failed to properly detect the mess the locals created.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >But the guy with authority (local elected mayor, not the state emergency manager) doesn't the emergency manager have more authority than the elected mayor? How much did the mayor know and how much power did he have? >and the engineers/technicians/??? 1. the plant manager was prosecuted 2. what's the point of prosecuting non-managerial employees? Did they participate in the cover-up? Were they supposed to predict what was going to happen?
    - coryrc 5y ago
      According to the linked Wikipedia article, the water department was under the authority of the elected mayor at the time, despite an emergency manager still involved in other affairs. Slap on the wrist. If my job was to get you spinach, and I am an expert in that area, and I chose to use animal waste for fertilizer, shouldn't I be held responsible for giving people e-coli if I don't take standard precautions?
  - nullc 5y ago
    > and the engineers/technicians/??? who made the choice not to use corrosion inhibitor, which actually caused the problem As dreadful as it was-- that choice hardly seems likely to be a crime. Negligent sure, but where is the criminal intent? "muhaha I'll make everyone sick!" hardly. In an event like flint I'd expect the only crimes to be attempts to cover it up, not the event itself. ... and it seems like the the desire to prosecute the people "at fault" caused them to give immunity to the people who actually committed crimes.
    - klyrs 5y ago
      Criminal intent? Probably not. Criminal negligence? I'd hope so.
      - nullc 5y ago
        From reading the filings in Walters v. Flint it appears to me that they hired an outside engineering firm to plan their switchover and that firm failed to warn them of any urgent need for corrosion control. The outside engineering firm argues that they didn't warn flint because they assumed flint would be using corrosion control. When it became clear that there were serious water quality issues, flint hired another outside engineering firm to review and monitor their system and make recommendations and the second engineering firm failed to identify the lack of corrosion control as a safety issue. They basically said 'you could add phosphates to reduce complaints about discolored water, but you're still going to get lots of complaints about discolored water'. To me it seems like a lot of the root cause was that they knew and expected the river water source would have serious cosmetic issues, but they felt forced into it. When things started going wrong they kept treating it as cosmetic issues (and it sure sounds that by count most of the complaints they had were cosmetic issues) even though the water was actually unsafe. With two outside water engineering firms, on top of the city's own staff not catching this... I think the explanation has to be more complicated than someone being criminally negligent.
- einpoklum 5y ago
  Indeed, the lead came from the pipes, but - the river water was such that by the time it got to people's faucets, it became polluted. So, you've split a valid hair. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis#Criminal_pr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis#Criminal_pr... So, the city manager hasn't been charged; the prosecutor quashed the prosecutorial team's suggestions of serious RICO charges in favor of minor ones; Snyder is charged with "neglect of duty"; etc. I also wonder whether Governor Whitmer may not have some responsibility for inaction during her time in office, although I don't know nearly enough US law to make stronger claims here except her failing her public, moral responsibility IMHO.

nullc 5y ago

> replaced with lead-polluted Flint river water, XKCD386: The river water was not lead-polluted. The river water replaced Detroit sourced water which had been treated with orthophosphate, which inhibits corrosion. Without the corrosion inhibitor lead was leached from water pipes (largely in lateral lines and in people's homes). > nor have the people responsible been charged with any serious offenses https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis#Criminal_prosecutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis#Criminal_pr...

coryrc 5y ago
> Fifteen criminal cases have been filed against local and state officials,[17] but only one minor conviction has been obtained, and all other charges have been dismissed or dropped. But the guy with authority (local elected mayor, not the state emergency manager) and the engineers/technicians/??? who made the choice not to use corrosion inhibitor, which actually caused the problem, haven't been charged (or the Glasgow guy get let off?) to go after political targets instead and state people who failed to properly detect the mess the locals created.
- gruez 5y ago
  >But the guy with authority (local elected mayor, not the state emergency manager) doesn't the emergency manager have more authority than the elected mayor? How much did the mayor know and how much power did he have? >and the engineers/technicians/??? 1. the plant manager was prosecuted 2. what's the point of prosecuting non-managerial employees? Did they participate in the cover-up? Were they supposed to predict what was going to happen?
  - coryrc 5y ago
    According to the linked Wikipedia article, the water department was under the authority of the elected mayor at the time, despite an emergency manager still involved in other affairs. Slap on the wrist. If my job was to get you spinach, and I am an expert in that area, and I chose to use animal waste for fertilizer, shouldn't I be held responsible for giving people e-coli if I don't take standard precautions?
- nullc 5y ago
  > and the engineers/technicians/??? who made the choice not to use corrosion inhibitor, which actually caused the problem As dreadful as it was-- that choice hardly seems likely to be a crime. Negligent sure, but where is the criminal intent? "muhaha I'll make everyone sick!" hardly. In an event like flint I'd expect the only crimes to be attempts to cover it up, not the event itself. ... and it seems like the the desire to prosecute the people "at fault" caused them to give immunity to the people who actually committed crimes.
  - klyrs 5y ago
    Criminal intent? Probably not. Criminal negligence? I'd hope so.
    - nullc 5y ago
      From reading the filings in Walters v. Flint it appears to me that they hired an outside engineering firm to plan their switchover and that firm failed to warn them of any urgent need for corrosion control. The outside engineering firm argues that they didn't warn flint because they assumed flint would be using corrosion control. When it became clear that there were serious water quality issues, flint hired another outside engineering firm to review and monitor their system and make recommendations and the second engineering firm failed to identify the lack of corrosion control as a safety issue. They basically said 'you could add phosphates to reduce complaints about discolored water, but you're still going to get lots of complaints about discolored water'. To me it seems like a lot of the root cause was that they knew and expected the river water source would have serious cosmetic issues, but they felt forced into it. When things started going wrong they kept treating it as cosmetic issues (and it sure sounds that by count most of the complaints they had were cosmetic issues) even though the water was actually unsafe. With two outside water engineering firms, on top of the city's own staff not catching this... I think the explanation has to be more complicated than someone being criminally negligent.
einpoklum 5y ago
Indeed, the lead came from the pipes, but - the river water was such that by the time it got to people's faucets, it became polluted. So, you've split a valid hair. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis#Criminal_pr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_water_crisis#Criminal_pr... So, the city manager hasn't been charged; the prosecutor quashed the prosecutorial team's suggestions of serious RICO charges in favor of minor ones; Snyder is charged with "neglect of duty"; etc. I also wonder whether Governor Whitmer may not have some responsibility for inaction during her time in office, although I don't know nearly enough US law to make stronger claims here except her failing her public, moral responsibility IMHO.