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> If you have a better competing offer, take it. Using it as leverage with your current employer will damage your relationship with them, even if you win that n

> If you have a better competing offer, take it. Using it as leverage with your current employer will damage your relationship with them, even if you win that negotiation. I disagree. This can happen but it isn’t some universal truth.

WalterBright 4y ago
Nothing is a universal truth with human beings. I made those statements from experience, from both sides of the table, and the experiences of colleagues. People don't like ultimatums. Even if they accede to them, their trust in the person will decline, and they'll be thinking twice about putting that person in a critical role.
- dhd415 4y ago
  Perhaps that is the disconnect here. Negotiations do not necessarily include ultimatums. Obviously, one must be prepared to deal with the situation where an employer declines to meet your compensation requests, but framing it as an ultimatum is probably counterproductive. That said, at least in the US, there is huge demand for capable developers (see the salaries posted on levels.fyi) and I would encourage anyone who is at all able to take a few interviews to assess their market rate. There are plenty of companies who treat their developers well _and_ pay them well. There's no need to settle for just one of those.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Looking for a job and pointing out competing offers is a good strategy. My take was on something different - having an existing job and then using a competing job as leverage. I'm not sure how you'd frame it as not an ultimatum, because the employer almost certainly will regard it as an ultimatum. Nor did I suggest "settling". I suggested if you get a better offer, take it.
    - slg 4y ago
      "An old coworker of mine referred me for a job at his company. He says they pay great so I went through the process and ended up getting a much better offer than I expected. I like working here and I want to stay, but the salary from this new place is just too good to ignore. Is there anything you can do to make it easier for me to decide to stay?" If your manager takes offense to that, it probably isn't a great place to work in the first place.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        You may not know if he takes a dim view of your tactic or not, and you may not realize that you're slowly being sidelined. But hey, it's your career, you get to do as you like! If I was right about everything, I'd be a billionaire.
        slg 4y ago
        >You may not know if he takes a dim view of your tactic or not, and you may not realize that you're slowly being sidelined. Sure, and maybe my manager is sidelining me because I remind them of their ex. Anything is possible. As I said in the original comment, an objection is a sign of a place you probably don't want to be working at anyway. I would definitely jump at the first sign of trouble, but I would wait for that sign. I wouldn't assume there is trouble without any evidence or avoid trying to negotiate on the assumption that it will cause trouble.
- whycombagator 4y ago
  > People don't like ultimatums. Even if they accede to them, their trust in the person will decline, and they'll be thinking twice about putting that person in a critical role. I disagree again. It doesn’t have to be an ultimatum. If it’s delivered as one then what you describe will likely happen. If a valued employee has an outside offer and brings it up tactfully with their manager it doesn’t have to be so binary as you position it to be. You can accept a counter at your current employer, erode no trust and continue to do well there. Clearly yourself and none of your colleagues have experienced what I describe which is a shame. To be clear, if you ever bring up an offer to your current boss you should always be willing to accept it in the event negotiations to stay are not fruitful

WalterBright 4y ago

Nothing is a universal truth with human beings. I made those statements from experience, from both sides of the table, and the experiences of colleagues. People don't like ultimatums. Even if they accede to them, their trust in the person will decline, and they'll be thinking twice about putting that person in a critical role.

dhd415 4y ago
Perhaps that is the disconnect here. Negotiations do not necessarily include ultimatums. Obviously, one must be prepared to deal with the situation where an employer declines to meet your compensation requests, but framing it as an ultimatum is probably counterproductive. That said, at least in the US, there is huge demand for capable developers (see the salaries posted on levels.fyi) and I would encourage anyone who is at all able to take a few interviews to assess their market rate. There are plenty of companies who treat their developers well _and_ pay them well. There's no need to settle for just one of those.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Looking for a job and pointing out competing offers is a good strategy. My take was on something different - having an existing job and then using a competing job as leverage. I'm not sure how you'd frame it as not an ultimatum, because the employer almost certainly will regard it as an ultimatum. Nor did I suggest "settling". I suggested if you get a better offer, take it.
  - slg 4y ago
    "An old coworker of mine referred me for a job at his company. He says they pay great so I went through the process and ended up getting a much better offer than I expected. I like working here and I want to stay, but the salary from this new place is just too good to ignore. Is there anything you can do to make it easier for me to decide to stay?" If your manager takes offense to that, it probably isn't a great place to work in the first place.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      You may not know if he takes a dim view of your tactic or not, and you may not realize that you're slowly being sidelined. But hey, it's your career, you get to do as you like! If I was right about everything, I'd be a billionaire.
      - slg 4y ago
        >You may not know if he takes a dim view of your tactic or not, and you may not realize that you're slowly being sidelined. Sure, and maybe my manager is sidelining me because I remind them of their ex. Anything is possible. As I said in the original comment, an objection is a sign of a place you probably don't want to be working at anyway. I would definitely jump at the first sign of trouble, but I would wait for that sign. I wouldn't assume there is trouble without any evidence or avoid trying to negotiate on the assumption that it will cause trouble.
whycombagator 4y ago
> People don't like ultimatums. Even if they accede to them, their trust in the person will decline, and they'll be thinking twice about putting that person in a critical role. I disagree again. It doesn’t have to be an ultimatum. If it’s delivered as one then what you describe will likely happen. If a valued employee has an outside offer and brings it up tactfully with their manager it doesn’t have to be so binary as you position it to be. You can accept a counter at your current employer, erode no trust and continue to do well there. Clearly yourself and none of your colleagues have experienced what I describe which is a shame. To be clear, if you ever bring up an offer to your current boss you should always be willing to accept it in the event negotiations to stay are not fruitful