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Does anybody have info on how this works on a technical level? I.e., is it an actual report of the phone’s GPS position, or is it tower-side triangulation? If t

by 542458 5y ago

Does anybody have info on how this works on a technical level? I.e., is it an actual report of the phone’s GPS position, or is it tower-side triangulation? If the former, do all devices support it?

bonestamp2 5y ago
It's possible the technical details were lost on the journalist. I mean, maybe this secret ping really exists or perhaps they're just using the tower based phone location system that they developed for Phase I of e911 support.
kube-system 5y ago
Both, depending on what features are supported by the handset and/or network. Earlier phases of e911 compliance did it with triangulation, and later phases do it with GPS location. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_9-1-1#Wireless_location https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_9-1-1#Wireless_locati...
- 542458 5y ago
  Hunh. Does this definitely use the e911 system for tracking? If so, there’s sort of a well-poisoning thing going on here. Most people would like 911 be able to figure out where they’re calling from in an emergency, but if this is going to be abused for surveillance purposes people are going to want to disable the phone-side portion of it - which prevents it from helping in an emergency. On that note, can this even be disabled on iOS/android? I didn’t see anything obvious in iOS settings (not that I’m itching to disable it - just curious if I even can!). In any case, I would like my device to report whenever the network does something unusual, like request my location or put in a no-ring call. I wonder if you can make a pinephone or Android do that.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    As I understand it is mostly handled by the chipset firmware these days, and no options are available to disable it because it is a legal requirement. But even if you were able to disable the functionality, the carriers towers can triangulate you.
    - car_analogy 5y ago
      It's revolting that we've allowed functionality to betray its owner to be legally mandated into "our" devices. It's no surprise that they keep this so very discreet. Edit: I am specifically referring to the e911 ability to without owner interaction or knowledge send GPS coordinates, not to network-side triangulation, or even to sending GPS coordinates when the owner initiates a 911 call.
      - kube-system 5y ago
        I remember seeing it talked about on local news when it was being implemented. It was normal to list “e911 support” on the outside of phone boxes when it was a new feature. Just checked my desk drawer and it is listed on the box of one of my HTC phones and one of my Samsung phones. E911 can also use triangulation which is isn’t “in” your phone anyway. It’s possible with any type of radio transmission due to plain old physics.
      - ghaff 5y ago
        It's "your" device but you're using it to communicate with things that are not your cell phone tower or telecoms network. One can have a reasonable discussion about the circumstances under which the telco doesn't/shouldn't know where your phone is but clearly there's some point where it's a function of using your phone. (As others have noted there may be some confusion here between GPS data and cell tower triangulation.)
    - 542458 5y ago
      Hmm. Re: chipset firmware, the GPS chip and the cellular modem are typically separate and not directly connected, right? So doesn’t that mean there is necessarily something in the main phone software that’s handling passing GPS data from the gps to the modem chip on-demand from the modem firmware?
      - kube-system 5y ago
        I believe it is pretty common for LTE modems to include GNSS support these days. I know many modems for even for data-only applications do. And it sounds like Qualcomm does it on their phone modems from this description: https://www.qualcomm.com/news/onq/2021/07/27/qualcomm-location-suite-ups-support-emergency-services https://www.qualcomm.com/news/onq/2021/07/27/qualcomm-locati...
flotzam 5y ago
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21088576/march-2019-fbi-cast-cellular-analysis-geo-location-field-resource-guide.pdf https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21088576/march-2019-f... (PDF page 57)
- H8crilA 5y ago
  This is better than the OP link! Let's get this to the front page.
- cengizIO 5y ago
  This is unbelievable. Some of the sensitive information like phone numbers are censored by drawing a box on top, rather than replacing certain digits by * or something else. Reader can get the digits by simply copying them underneath. How can someone miss this?

by 542458 5y ago

Does anybody have info on how this works on a technical level? I.e., is it an actual report of the phone’s GPS position, or is it tower-side triangulation? If the former, do all devices support it?

bonestamp2 5y ago

It's possible the technical details were lost on the journalist. I mean, maybe this secret ping really exists or perhaps they're just using the tower based phone location system that they developed for Phase I of e911 support.

kube-system 5y ago

Both, depending on what features are supported by the handset and/or network. Earlier phases of e911 compliance did it with triangulation, and later phases do it with GPS location. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_9-1-1#Wireless_location https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_9-1-1#Wireless_locati...

542458 5y ago
Hunh. Does this definitely use the e911 system for tracking? If so, there’s sort of a well-poisoning thing going on here. Most people would like 911 be able to figure out where they’re calling from in an emergency, but if this is going to be abused for surveillance purposes people are going to want to disable the phone-side portion of it - which prevents it from helping in an emergency. On that note, can this even be disabled on iOS/android? I didn’t see anything obvious in iOS settings (not that I’m itching to disable it - just curious if I even can!). In any case, I would like my device to report whenever the network does something unusual, like request my location or put in a no-ring call. I wonder if you can make a pinephone or Android do that.
- kube-system 5y ago
  As I understand it is mostly handled by the chipset firmware these days, and no options are available to disable it because it is a legal requirement. But even if you were able to disable the functionality, the carriers towers can triangulate you.
  - car_analogy 5y ago
    It's revolting that we've allowed functionality to betray its owner to be legally mandated into "our" devices. It's no surprise that they keep this so very discreet. Edit: I am specifically referring to the e911 ability to without owner interaction or knowledge send GPS coordinates, not to network-side triangulation, or even to sending GPS coordinates when the owner initiates a 911 call.
    - kube-system 5y ago
      I remember seeing it talked about on local news when it was being implemented. It was normal to list “e911 support” on the outside of phone boxes when it was a new feature. Just checked my desk drawer and it is listed on the box of one of my HTC phones and one of my Samsung phones. E911 can also use triangulation which is isn’t “in” your phone anyway. It’s possible with any type of radio transmission due to plain old physics.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      It's "your" device but you're using it to communicate with things that are not your cell phone tower or telecoms network. One can have a reasonable discussion about the circumstances under which the telco doesn't/shouldn't know where your phone is but clearly there's some point where it's a function of using your phone. (As others have noted there may be some confusion here between GPS data and cell tower triangulation.)
  - 542458 5y ago
    Hmm. Re: chipset firmware, the GPS chip and the cellular modem are typically separate and not directly connected, right? So doesn’t that mean there is necessarily something in the main phone software that’s handling passing GPS data from the gps to the modem chip on-demand from the modem firmware?
    - kube-system 5y ago
      I believe it is pretty common for LTE modems to include GNSS support these days. I know many modems for even for data-only applications do. And it sounds like Qualcomm does it on their phone modems from this description: https://www.qualcomm.com/news/onq/2021/07/27/qualcomm-location-suite-ups-support-emergency-services https://www.qualcomm.com/news/onq/2021/07/27/qualcomm-locati...

flotzam 5y ago

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21088576/march-2019-fbi-cast-cellular-analysis-geo-location-field-resource-guide.pdf https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21088576/march-2019-f... (PDF page 57)

H8crilA 5y ago
This is better than the OP link! Let's get this to the front page.
cengizIO 5y ago
This is unbelievable. Some of the sensitive information like phone numbers are censored by drawing a box on top, rather than replacing certain digits by * or something else. Reader can get the digits by simply copying them underneath. How can someone miss this?