6 ms·

It's hilarious how they call privacy features "apocalypse." Kudos for Apple for making the lives of these folks more difficult.

pete_nic 5y ago
Perhaps a bit idealistic but I aspire for a world where companies can segment and target their market while consumers maintain a level of privacy.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  If we assume that privacy is 100% respected, "segmenting and targeting" is still not something that benefits consumers.
  - pete_nic 5y ago
    Do you believe privacy is 100% respected in the offline world? A billboard for a personal injury lawyer on the highway or an ad for headphones at a subway stop are all examples of segmentation and targeting we experience in the offline world.
    - dev_tty01 5y ago
      How is that disrespecting privacy? The billboard (so far) is not doing facial or license identification and recording that I drove by the sign at 2:23 on Monday at 63 mph.
    - theamk 5y ago
      The equivalent of this is showing gaming keyboard ads on ign.com, and bank ads on bloomberg.com. As long as same ads are shown to every visitor, this is no problem at all. The people hate it when their actions on one site affect ads on completely unrelated sites. Real wold equvalent would be a salesman saying "I was passing by your house yesterday amd noticed you got a new bed.. Want to buy some bedsheets at a great price?". I think we agree this would be super creepy.
      - pete_nic 5y ago
        Contextual advertising https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/contextual-advertising.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/contextual-advertising....
    - jen20 5y ago
      People can do that kind of online targeting without the need for privacy invasion. For example, if I wanted to target Apple users who probably have some disposable income, I'd buy an ad slot on John Gruber's blog. If I wanted to advertise to frequent travellers, I'd advertise on FlyerTalk. That kind of thing.
  - shostack 5y ago
    How do you reconcile that with small businesses for example needing to reach prospective customers?
JKCalhoun 5y ago
> You’ve probably had this experience: you spend some time on the whiteboard mapping out your marketing funnel and growth loops, and you’re really fired up ready to grow your business, but then the ultimate question hits you like a sledgehammer: “How are we going to track this?”. No, I have not. One wonders how Sony in the 1950's (as an example) "tracked".
trurl 5y ago
And still folks think that if side loading is forced on Apple, that companies will not force us to start side loading their apps to escape this "apocalypse".
- glowingly 5y ago
  I agree. We only have to look 3 years ago to see exactly what happens when those same companies get sideload access. Facebook did something very similar, using their Apple App Store Developer certificate to enroll users as "employees," allowing them to defacto sideload their market research application. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19033451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19033451 I also fully expect the last browser holding against Google's browser monoculture - Safari - to die soon after. I hate this state of affairs, where Apple's sheer greed is the main force stablizing this fragile environment.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    Those instances show that Facebook is willing to do that to small incentivized groups of users- in that case, volunteers offered monetary benefit via gift cards, but difficult to say such a model is accomplishable on a wide scale. This is a situation where the users were self-selecting. Certainly, companies will misuse and abuse the freedoms associated with sideloading, but I disagree that it’s as an easy task as people think. First they actually have to build competing app stores that are compelling enough for users to overcome the friction of switching. I don’t think these companies, other than game platforms like Epic, and perhaps tech companies in politically sensitive markets such as China or Russia, have it in them: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30808926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30808926
    - trurl 5y ago
      I don't understand why you think building alternative app stores is somehow a limiting factor. If you want to use some software, and the company wants to bypass Apple's protections, they'll just put a download link on their website. Why go through the hassle of registering with any "app store" at all?

pete_nic 5y ago

Perhaps a bit idealistic but I aspire for a world where companies can segment and target their market while consumers maintain a level of privacy.

Nextgrid 5y ago
If we assume that privacy is 100% respected, "segmenting and targeting" is still not something that benefits consumers.
- pete_nic 5y ago
  Do you believe privacy is 100% respected in the offline world? A billboard for a personal injury lawyer on the highway or an ad for headphones at a subway stop are all examples of segmentation and targeting we experience in the offline world.
  - dev_tty01 5y ago
    How is that disrespecting privacy? The billboard (so far) is not doing facial or license identification and recording that I drove by the sign at 2:23 on Monday at 63 mph.
  - theamk 5y ago
    The equivalent of this is showing gaming keyboard ads on ign.com, and bank ads on bloomberg.com. As long as same ads are shown to every visitor, this is no problem at all. The people hate it when their actions on one site affect ads on completely unrelated sites. Real wold equvalent would be a salesman saying "I was passing by your house yesterday amd noticed you got a new bed.. Want to buy some bedsheets at a great price?". I think we agree this would be super creepy.
    - pete_nic 5y ago
      Contextual advertising https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/contextual-advertising.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/contextual-advertising....
  - jen20 5y ago
    People can do that kind of online targeting without the need for privacy invasion. For example, if I wanted to target Apple users who probably have some disposable income, I'd buy an ad slot on John Gruber's blog. If I wanted to advertise to frequent travellers, I'd advertise on FlyerTalk. That kind of thing.
- shostack 5y ago
  How do you reconcile that with small businesses for example needing to reach prospective customers?

JKCalhoun 5y ago

> You’ve probably had this experience: you spend some time on the whiteboard mapping out your marketing funnel and growth loops, and you’re really fired up ready to grow your business, but then the ultimate question hits you like a sledgehammer: “How are we going to track this?”. No, I have not. One wonders how Sony in the 1950's (as an example) "tracked".

trurl 5y ago

And still folks think that if side loading is forced on Apple, that companies will not force us to start side loading their apps to escape this "apocalypse".

glowingly 5y ago
I agree. We only have to look 3 years ago to see exactly what happens when those same companies get sideload access. Facebook did something very similar, using their Apple App Store Developer certificate to enroll users as "employees," allowing them to defacto sideload their market research application. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19033451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19033451 I also fully expect the last browser holding against Google's browser monoculture - Safari - to die soon after. I hate this state of affairs, where Apple's sheer greed is the main force stablizing this fragile environment.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  Those instances show that Facebook is willing to do that to small incentivized groups of users- in that case, volunteers offered monetary benefit via gift cards, but difficult to say such a model is accomplishable on a wide scale. This is a situation where the users were self-selecting. Certainly, companies will misuse and abuse the freedoms associated with sideloading, but I disagree that it’s as an easy task as people think. First they actually have to build competing app stores that are compelling enough for users to overcome the friction of switching. I don’t think these companies, other than game platforms like Epic, and perhaps tech companies in politically sensitive markets such as China or Russia, have it in them: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30808926 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30808926
  - trurl 5y ago
    I don't understand why you think building alternative app stores is somehow a limiting factor. If you want to use some software, and the company wants to bypass Apple's protections, they'll just put a download link on their website. Why go through the hassle of registering with any "app store" at all?