4 ms·

There is also the micro plastics issue to solve, before widening the scope of plastic applications.

loudmax 4y ago
The world should absolutely solve the micro plastics issue, but the world should absolutely not stop developing new plastics or finding new uses for plastics until that problem is solved. There should be more research into the impact of micro plastic particles. That doesn't mean we should stop research into new applications. These things can, and should, happen in parallel.
- Verdex 4y ago
  To add to your point. New R&D for plastics is probably where the solution to microplastics is going to come from. Some researcher building the next superplastic pauses to say "hey that's funny" and bam we've got a new formula that completely prevents the formation of microplastics. Artificially constraining development is a great way to either miss an important direction of research that will unknowingly solve our problems OR just kill the industry leaving us with our existing plastics that degrade into microplastics. Of course new developments should definitely run a microplastics study to make sure we don't make the situation worse. However "no more this until that" is a great way to freeze ourselves into our current less than ideal state for decades longer than we have to be here.
  - cromka 4y ago
    > Some researcher building the next superplastic pauses to say "hey that's funny" and bam we've got a new formula that completely prevents the formation of microplastics. My understanding is that microplastics are a result of regular wear and tear, and I don't think a material exist that is immune to that. If anything, a new plastic formula may be created that hardens it enough to reduce the shedding to a negligible level.
    - donkarma 4y ago
      so your solution is to make the microplastics smaller?
      - cromka 4y ago
        Struggling to understand how did infer that from my take?
    - thayne 4y ago
      The solution might be a plastic that naturally decomposes. Of course, that would likely make the material less durable...
- jillesvangurp 4y ago
  Exactly, plastic is not a material but a very broad category of materials with a wide range of properties. Micro-plastics are a specific problem with some plastics and rubbers in e.g. tires and other materials on cars because they erode away with normal use and the resulting dust is then flushed into sewers, waterways, and eventually the ocean. Material science is providing a wide range of new and exciting options that go above and beyond what we could do only a few years ago. Dismissing something with essentially no understanding whatsoever is not helpful.
  - robonerd 4y ago
    > Dismissing something with essentially no understanding whatsoever is not helpful. The problem with the plastics industry, the reason so many people are fed up with it, is the 'understanding' you speak of tends to lag their industrial application by many years. So we end up with a whole lot of "X is now known to have bad properties, but we already use too much of it to change now." For instance, virtually every thermoset plastic in use today is impossible to recycle, but there seems to be no going back. Their use continues to proliferate.
  - redisman 4y ago
    On a long time range doesn’t all plastic become micro plastics unless it’s incinerated? Clothes, food packaging, electronics, etc
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
alanwreath 4y ago
THIS ^^^. My concerns are less and less about preserving my phone and more and more about preserving my planet. Show me a phone that can be completely recycled instead of giving me the illusion that it won't break because of x or y. Eventually it's going to be to sluggish for modern applications (because of its cpu or because of its battery). I have a growing pile of now useless phones even at my house that I never broke because I take care of my investments. And while I wouldn't expect a company to search out "right" solutions, I would hope that MIT as an educational institution could see beyond money and at least get in front of where the hockey puck should be, and not where it's tended to go (I'm speaking of sustainable profits on a planet in which we can live vs just amazing profits on an uninhabitable planet).
- Verdex 4y ago
  Personally I like the idea of modular phones such that you can swap out only components that are obsolete or damaged. Although, ultimately, this feels like a market/advertising issue over a technical issue. While I'm not convinced a 100% recycle phone will ever be a likelihood; surely we can get to 90%. Or slow down the trash generation with the aforementioned modular phone. However it's going to require people to want to spend money on such a thing and also industry to want to produce and advertise such a thing. None of which seems like it's happening anytime soon.
  - germinalphrase 4y ago
    How much does a modular design really extend the life of a computer? Very few people (my father aside) are actively trying to keep computers from the 90’s orearly 2000’s alive. That my 10-year-old MacBook is still kicking is kind of a miracle (and only because I have harvested the guts from two others).
    - denton-scratch 4y ago
      I once set up a computer workshop using PCs discarded by university labs. I assembled about a dozen PCs from about 20 discards. One of them served as a DSL router. In retrospect, I regret it; I saved those PCs from going to the dump, but: - They were not power-efficient - Because the hardware was a decade old, they had poor connectivity options I used to seek out computers that were maximally upgradeable. But in practice, the only thing I ever upgraded was disk and memory. I still have a box of obsolete memory cards. Stuff gets obsolete very quickly these days.

The world should absolutely solve the micro plastics issue, but the world should absolutely not stop developing new plastics or finding new uses for plastics until that problem is solved. There should be more research into the impact of micro plastic particles. That doesn't mean we should stop research into new applications. These things can, and should, happen in parallel.

Verdex 4y ago
To add to your point. New R&D for plastics is probably where the solution to microplastics is going to come from. Some researcher building the next superplastic pauses to say "hey that's funny" and bam we've got a new formula that completely prevents the formation of microplastics. Artificially constraining development is a great way to either miss an important direction of research that will unknowingly solve our problems OR just kill the industry leaving us with our existing plastics that degrade into microplastics. Of course new developments should definitely run a microplastics study to make sure we don't make the situation worse. However "no more this until that" is a great way to freeze ourselves into our current less than ideal state for decades longer than we have to be here.
- cromka 4y ago
  > Some researcher building the next superplastic pauses to say "hey that's funny" and bam we've got a new formula that completely prevents the formation of microplastics. My understanding is that microplastics are a result of regular wear and tear, and I don't think a material exist that is immune to that. If anything, a new plastic formula may be created that hardens it enough to reduce the shedding to a negligible level.
  - donkarma 4y ago
    so your solution is to make the microplastics smaller?
    - cromka 4y ago
      Struggling to understand how did infer that from my take?
  - thayne 4y ago
    The solution might be a plastic that naturally decomposes. Of course, that would likely make the material less durable...
jillesvangurp 4y ago
Exactly, plastic is not a material but a very broad category of materials with a wide range of properties. Micro-plastics are a specific problem with some plastics and rubbers in e.g. tires and other materials on cars because they erode away with normal use and the resulting dust is then flushed into sewers, waterways, and eventually the ocean. Material science is providing a wide range of new and exciting options that go above and beyond what we could do only a few years ago. Dismissing something with essentially no understanding whatsoever is not helpful.
- robonerd 4y ago
  > Dismissing something with essentially no understanding whatsoever is not helpful. The problem with the plastics industry, the reason so many people are fed up with it, is the 'understanding' you speak of tends to lag their industrial application by many years. So we end up with a whole lot of "X is now known to have bad properties, but we already use too much of it to change now." For instance, virtually every thermoset plastic in use today is impossible to recycle, but there seems to be no going back. Their use continues to proliferate.
- redisman 4y ago
  On a long time range doesn’t all plastic become micro plastics unless it’s incinerated? Clothes, food packaging, electronics, etc
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

alanwreath 4y ago

THIS ^^^. My concerns are less and less about preserving my phone and more and more about preserving my planet. Show me a phone that can be completely recycled instead of giving me the illusion that it won't break because of x or y. Eventually it's going to be to sluggish for modern applications (because of its cpu or because of its battery). I have a growing pile of now useless phones even at my house that I never broke because I take care of my investments. And while I wouldn't expect a company to search out "right" solutions, I would hope that MIT as an educational institution could see beyond money and at least get in front of where the hockey puck should be, and not where it's tended to go (I'm speaking of sustainable profits on a planet in which we can live vs just amazing profits on an uninhabitable planet).

Verdex 4y ago
Personally I like the idea of modular phones such that you can swap out only components that are obsolete or damaged. Although, ultimately, this feels like a market/advertising issue over a technical issue. While I'm not convinced a 100% recycle phone will ever be a likelihood; surely we can get to 90%. Or slow down the trash generation with the aforementioned modular phone. However it's going to require people to want to spend money on such a thing and also industry to want to produce and advertise such a thing. None of which seems like it's happening anytime soon.
- germinalphrase 4y ago
  How much does a modular design really extend the life of a computer? Very few people (my father aside) are actively trying to keep computers from the 90’s orearly 2000’s alive. That my 10-year-old MacBook is still kicking is kind of a miracle (and only because I have harvested the guts from two others).
  - denton-scratch 4y ago
    I once set up a computer workshop using PCs discarded by university labs. I assembled about a dozen PCs from about 20 discards. One of them served as a DSL router. In retrospect, I regret it; I saved those PCs from going to the dump, but: - They were not power-efficient - Because the hardware was a decade old, they had poor connectivity options I used to seek out computers that were maximally upgradeable. But in practice, the only thing I ever upgraded was disk and memory. I still have a box of obsolete memory cards. Stuff gets obsolete very quickly these days.