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Sure the specific titles might be slightly unique to any given company. "Software Engineer for iCloud" or whatever. But these really are generalist software eng

Sure the specific titles might be slightly unique to any given company. "Software Engineer for iCloud" or whatever. But these really are generalist software engineering roles. There are hundreds of thousands of US workers that can fill these generalist roles. It's not as if Apple is trying to hire US workers, failing, and then resorting to the H-1B program as they're supposed to. They use the H-1B to increase their labor pool and lower costs. That's the scam.

triceratops 4y ago
> It's not as if Apple is trying to hire US workers, failing, and then resorting to the H-1B program as they're supposed to. They don't have to try and fail to hire US workers in order to use the H-1B program. That's for employment-based green cards. The H-1B only requires specialized skills - software engineering is a specialized skill. > They use the H-1B to increase their labor pool and lower costs Go check out levels.fyi to see what Apple pays "generalist software engineers". It's well-known that the younger generation of American workers is financially struggling. So it's not like they're turning down software roles at Apple because it's not enough money.
- staunch 4y ago
  > They don't have to try and fail to hire US workers in order to use the H-1B program. The US Department of Labor disagrees with your assertion: "The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States." https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/immigration/h1b https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/immigration/h1b There are requirements for companies to attempt to hire US workers first. None of them actually make a good faith effort to do this, they just pretend to. And that's why it's fraud.
  - triceratops 4y ago
    > There are requirements for companies to attempt to hire US workers first You should read your own link again. It doesn't say that anywhere. Here's what it does say: "Employers must attest to the Department of Labor that they will pay wages to the H-1B nonimmigrant workers that are at least equal to the actual wage paid by the employer to other workers with similar experience and qualifications for the job in question, or the prevailing wage for the occupation in the area of intended employment – whichever is greater." Heck, another source from the US Department of Labor explicitly answers this question[1]: "The H-1B employer is not required to recruit U.S. workers, unless it is H-1B-dependent, a previous willful violator of H-1B requirements, or an employer receiving funding described in the Employ American Workers Act (EAWA) which hires a new H-1B worker during the period Feb. 17, 2009 through Feb. 16, 2011. Such employers must take good faith steps to recruit U.S. workers for any job for which they seek H-1B workers." 1. https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/whdfs62O.pdf https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/whdf...
    - staunch 4y ago
      Okay, you're right, at least in 2022. I believe it was relaxed in this regard (well placed political "donations" at work) because I'm fairly certain there used to be requirements to recruit U.S. workers first. Today, it seems that only "willful violators" are legally required to recruit U.S. workers. So FAANG are merely violating the intent of the law, which is stated extremely clearly by the BOL: "The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce" There's nothing debatable or ambiguous about this direct statement of intent. So these corporations have successfully bribed the right people to make it legal to violate the intent of the law. Which shouldn't surprise anyone but changes nothing about the ethics of the situation. It's still a massive abuse and entirely used for the purpose of increasing corporate profits.
      - triceratops 4y ago
        > I believe it was relaxed in this regard Source? > So FAANG are merely violating the intent of the law If someone can't hire enough domestic workers when offering $300k/year, I think it's safe to say there aren't enough domestic workers. At that salary level there are unlikely to be loads of people uninterested in the job. It's not hard, dangerous manual labor.

triceratops 4y ago

> It's not as if Apple is trying to hire US workers, failing, and then resorting to the H-1B program as they're supposed to. They don't have to try and fail to hire US workers in order to use the H-1B program. That's for employment-based green cards. The H-1B only requires specialized skills - software engineering is a specialized skill. > They use the H-1B to increase their labor pool and lower costs Go check out levels.fyi to see what Apple pays "generalist software engineers". It's well-known that the younger generation of American workers is financially struggling. So it's not like they're turning down software roles at Apple because it's not enough money.

staunch 4y ago
> They don't have to try and fail to hire US workers in order to use the H-1B program. The US Department of Labor disagrees with your assertion: "The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States." https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/immigration/h1b https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/immigration/h1b There are requirements for companies to attempt to hire US workers first. None of them actually make a good faith effort to do this, they just pretend to. And that's why it's fraud.
- triceratops 4y ago
  > There are requirements for companies to attempt to hire US workers first You should read your own link again. It doesn't say that anywhere. Here's what it does say: "Employers must attest to the Department of Labor that they will pay wages to the H-1B nonimmigrant workers that are at least equal to the actual wage paid by the employer to other workers with similar experience and qualifications for the job in question, or the prevailing wage for the occupation in the area of intended employment – whichever is greater." Heck, another source from the US Department of Labor explicitly answers this question[1]: "The H-1B employer is not required to recruit U.S. workers, unless it is H-1B-dependent, a previous willful violator of H-1B requirements, or an employer receiving funding described in the Employ American Workers Act (EAWA) which hires a new H-1B worker during the period Feb. 17, 2009 through Feb. 16, 2011. Such employers must take good faith steps to recruit U.S. workers for any job for which they seek H-1B workers." 1. https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/whdfs62O.pdf https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WHD/legacy/files/whdf...
  - staunch 4y ago
    Okay, you're right, at least in 2022. I believe it was relaxed in this regard (well placed political "donations" at work) because I'm fairly certain there used to be requirements to recruit U.S. workers first. Today, it seems that only "willful violators" are legally required to recruit U.S. workers. So FAANG are merely violating the intent of the law, which is stated extremely clearly by the BOL: "The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce" There's nothing debatable or ambiguous about this direct statement of intent. So these corporations have successfully bribed the right people to make it legal to violate the intent of the law. Which shouldn't surprise anyone but changes nothing about the ethics of the situation. It's still a massive abuse and entirely used for the purpose of increasing corporate profits.
    - triceratops 4y ago
      > I believe it was relaxed in this regard Source? > So FAANG are merely violating the intent of the law If someone can't hire enough domestic workers when offering $300k/year, I think it's safe to say there aren't enough domestic workers. At that salary level there are unlikely to be loads of people uninterested in the job. It's not hard, dangerous manual labor.