8 ms·

The best and most effective way to negotiate a salary or promotion is to have a competing offer. If they want to keep you, they’ll pay and you win. If they don

by tucaz 4y ago

The best and most effective way to negotiate a salary or promotion is to have a competing offer. If they want to keep you, they’ll pay and you win. If they don’t want to pay, you leave and still win. Im sure there are companies out there giving raises out of the good of their heart but why would they do it? If nobody else wants to pay you more, why would I? I know this is frowned upon here at HN and we like to think people get rewarded for good performance but unfortunately only a fraction of companies work like that. Good luck!

k8sToGo 4y ago
This can quite backfire if you like everything else about the company. They could quite easily just say "well then go." Also it might make it clear that you have a certain flight risk. I personally would never go the counteroffer route, regardless. If you want more money and you have a better offer just take that one.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Not being willing to negotiate in good faith is a sign of poor business acumen and low emotional intelligence. Clearly stating you can't go any lower/higher and 'take it or leave it' is fine -- getting offended or reneging the offer purely because someone has the balls to negotiate is just childish.
  - k8sToGo 4y ago
    That's not what I meant. But if your mind is already set on probably leaving, then why would any manager still count on you and schedule you in any sprints or projects?
- mirceal 4y ago
  nope. you’ll end up underpaid and over the years leave a lot of money you deserve on the table. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiated_agreement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negoti... Get the competing offer. Negotiate. Having a competing offer is a super strong signal for someone that is trying to hire you. It tells them you not only cleared their interviews but also cleared other interviews. It’s a hallmark of a competent person.
  - k8sToGo 4y ago
    I never said to not get a competing offer. I said not to take (accept) a counteroffer. In fact, I think it is good practice to do interviews every once in a while to see what the market is willing to pay for you.
    - mirceal 4y ago
      huh. i guess i misread the whole thing. agree with not accepting a counteroffer. in fact, if it goes to that, you probably don’t want to work there anymore
- spacemanmatt 4y ago
  When your workforce has mobility, everyone is a flight risk.
  - k8sToGo 4y ago
    Yes. So why not just accept the competing offer anyways?
    - spacemanmatt 4y ago
      Maybe you rather keep your current job, everything else considered.
notch656a 4y ago
>If nobody else wants to pay you more, why would I? Simple, because you want to make a profit. I can unironically and with all seriousness say I've chosen to become homeless on at least one occasion rather than work with people with your attitude.
- z3t4 4y ago
  And you get replaced by a team of consultants that charge $9000/hour. Or the company will pivot in order to not need someone with your qualifications. Because that costs less then giving everyone a 10% rise in salary. So if you want a high salary, go work for a company that pays top salaries.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    Been there done that. Wound up doing contract work for way more pay.
as-j 4y ago
> The best and most effective way to negotiate a salary or promotion is to have a competing offer. Yikes, who's got this much time? Sure when applying for a new roles, having a counter offer is great, but imagine applying for a series of job, doing a TPS, then 6 hour onsite or two to get 1 offer to take a salary review. All of this over a couple of months? Leaving isn't always winning. Good jobs and tenure at them can be really good. If you're learning, growing, working with good engineers can be amazing. Just because somewhere else is willing to pay and extra few dollars doesn't always make it worth it.
- totony 4y ago
  Let's say you normally get 5%/y augmentation, but you can leverage a job offer to get 20%, that's 15% more. If your salary is 100k usd (55$/h for 35h/w), then that translates to 15k. Assuming it takes you (6h x 6 potential companies) 36h, that's 420$/h (assuming you work the whole year). All this to say, with charitable estimates, this seems very worth your time.
WalterBright 4y ago
If you have a better competing offer, take it. Using it as leverage with your current employer will damage your relationship with them, even if you win that negotiation. > unfortunately only a fraction of companies work like that In my experience, a company's view of an employee's performance often wildly diverges from the employee's personal view of it. But there's nothing wrong with making a case to your employer about how valuable your contributions are. They may not be aware of it. Maybe their view of your contributions is misinformed. > Im sure there are companies out there giving raises out of the good of their heart but why would they do it? When you buy a laptop, do you pay extra out of the good of your heart? Or do you look for the best deal?
- whycombagator 4y ago
  > If you have a better competing offer, take it. Using it as leverage with your current employer will damage your relationship with them, even if you win that negotiation. I disagree. This can happen but it isn’t some universal truth.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Nothing is a universal truth with human beings. I made those statements from experience, from both sides of the table, and the experiences of colleagues. People don't like ultimatums. Even if they accede to them, their trust in the person will decline, and they'll be thinking twice about putting that person in a critical role.
    - dhd415 4y ago
      Perhaps that is the disconnect here. Negotiations do not necessarily include ultimatums. Obviously, one must be prepared to deal with the situation where an employer declines to meet your compensation requests, but framing it as an ultimatum is probably counterproductive. That said, at least in the US, there is huge demand for capable developers (see the salaries posted on levels.fyi) and I would encourage anyone who is at all able to take a few interviews to assess their market rate. There are plenty of companies who treat their developers well _and_ pay them well. There's no need to settle for just one of those.
basisword 4y ago
If I found out my company worked on this basis, I would leave. It's shitty behaviour. People don't have time to go out and interview at other companies. Not to mention, you're burning any future potential with the other company when you waste their time. >> If nobody else wants to pay you more, why would I? Because I bring value to you, do a good job, and you don't want me to leave (which I can do, even if I don't currently have an open offer). You don't want to have me leave suddenly and have to spend time and money hiring someone new and training them. That's why you would pay me more even if I don't rub another offer in your face.
- mehrdada 4y ago
  > If I found out my company worked on this basis, I would leave. Most likely you'd be in denial or delusion if you are assuming any company of scale is not operating on this basis. Sure they may not operate solely on this basis (give minor adjustment to the target they have to reduce the "activation energy" of people interviewing) but fundamentally what GP says is the primary way they operate.
bitwize 4y ago
Yep. Better grind that leetcode and those mock interviews.

by tucaz 4y ago

k8sToGo 4y ago

This can quite backfire if you like everything else about the company. They could quite easily just say "well then go." Also it might make it clear that you have a certain flight risk. I personally would never go the counteroffer route, regardless. If you want more money and you have a better offer just take that one.

notch656a 4y ago
Not being willing to negotiate in good faith is a sign of poor business acumen and low emotional intelligence. Clearly stating you can't go any lower/higher and 'take it or leave it' is fine -- getting offended or reneging the offer purely because someone has the balls to negotiate is just childish.
- k8sToGo 4y ago
  That's not what I meant. But if your mind is already set on probably leaving, then why would any manager still count on you and schedule you in any sprints or projects?
mirceal 4y ago
nope. you’ll end up underpaid and over the years leave a lot of money you deserve on the table. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiated_agreement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negoti... Get the competing offer. Negotiate. Having a competing offer is a super strong signal for someone that is trying to hire you. It tells them you not only cleared their interviews but also cleared other interviews. It’s a hallmark of a competent person.
- k8sToGo 4y ago
  I never said to not get a competing offer. I said not to take (accept) a counteroffer. In fact, I think it is good practice to do interviews every once in a while to see what the market is willing to pay for you.
  - mirceal 4y ago
    huh. i guess i misread the whole thing. agree with not accepting a counteroffer. in fact, if it goes to that, you probably don’t want to work there anymore
spacemanmatt 4y ago
When your workforce has mobility, everyone is a flight risk.
- k8sToGo 4y ago
  Yes. So why not just accept the competing offer anyways?
  - spacemanmatt 4y ago
    Maybe you rather keep your current job, everything else considered.

notch656a 4y ago

>If nobody else wants to pay you more, why would I? Simple, because you want to make a profit. I can unironically and with all seriousness say I've chosen to become homeless on at least one occasion rather than work with people with your attitude.

z3t4 4y ago
And you get replaced by a team of consultants that charge $9000/hour. Or the company will pivot in order to not need someone with your qualifications. Because that costs less then giving everyone a 10% rise in salary. So if you want a high salary, go work for a company that pays top salaries.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Been there done that. Wound up doing contract work for way more pay.

as-j 4y ago

> The best and most effective way to negotiate a salary or promotion is to have a competing offer. Yikes, who's got this much time? Sure when applying for a new roles, having a counter offer is great, but imagine applying for a series of job, doing a TPS, then 6 hour onsite or two to get 1 offer to take a salary review. All of this over a couple of months? Leaving isn't always winning. Good jobs and tenure at them can be really good. If you're learning, growing, working with good engineers can be amazing. Just because somewhere else is willing to pay and extra few dollars doesn't always make it worth it.

totony 4y ago
Let's say you normally get 5%/y augmentation, but you can leverage a job offer to get 20%, that's 15% more. If your salary is 100k usd (55$/h for 35h/w), then that translates to 15k. Assuming it takes you (6h x 6 potential companies) 36h, that's 420$/h (assuming you work the whole year). All this to say, with charitable estimates, this seems very worth your time.

WalterBright 4y ago

If you have a better competing offer, take it. Using it as leverage with your current employer will damage your relationship with them, even if you win that negotiation. > unfortunately only a fraction of companies work like that In my experience, a company's view of an employee's performance often wildly diverges from the employee's personal view of it. But there's nothing wrong with making a case to your employer about how valuable your contributions are. They may not be aware of it. Maybe their view of your contributions is misinformed. > Im sure there are companies out there giving raises out of the good of their heart but why would they do it? When you buy a laptop, do you pay extra out of the good of your heart? Or do you look for the best deal?

whycombagator 4y ago
> If you have a better competing offer, take it. Using it as leverage with your current employer will damage your relationship with them, even if you win that negotiation. I disagree. This can happen but it isn’t some universal truth.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Nothing is a universal truth with human beings. I made those statements from experience, from both sides of the table, and the experiences of colleagues. People don't like ultimatums. Even if they accede to them, their trust in the person will decline, and they'll be thinking twice about putting that person in a critical role.
  - dhd415 4y ago
    Perhaps that is the disconnect here. Negotiations do not necessarily include ultimatums. Obviously, one must be prepared to deal with the situation where an employer declines to meet your compensation requests, but framing it as an ultimatum is probably counterproductive. That said, at least in the US, there is huge demand for capable developers (see the salaries posted on levels.fyi) and I would encourage anyone who is at all able to take a few interviews to assess their market rate. There are plenty of companies who treat their developers well _and_ pay them well. There's no need to settle for just one of those.

basisword 4y ago

If I found out my company worked on this basis, I would leave. It's shitty behaviour. People don't have time to go out and interview at other companies. Not to mention, you're burning any future potential with the other company when you waste their time. >> If nobody else wants to pay you more, why would I? Because I bring value to you, do a good job, and you don't want me to leave (which I can do, even if I don't currently have an open offer). You don't want to have me leave suddenly and have to spend time and money hiring someone new and training them. That's why you would pay me more even if I don't rub another offer in your face.

mehrdada 4y ago
> If I found out my company worked on this basis, I would leave. Most likely you'd be in denial or delusion if you are assuming any company of scale is not operating on this basis. Sure they may not operate solely on this basis (give minor adjustment to the target they have to reduce the "activation energy" of people interviewing) but fundamentally what GP says is the primary way they operate.

bitwize 4y ago

Yep. Better grind that leetcode and those mock interviews.