7 ms·

If you look up the archive from that time frame, you'll see that /r/russia was pure Russian propaganda.

by afpx 5y ago

user3939382 5y ago
I've been accused several times recently of believing "Russian propaganda" about the war in Ukraine which of course I find very offensive. I'm an intelligent person, I've analyzed the situation, listened to different sources, and come to the conclusion that the western powers, the US in particular, and to some degree Ukraine, are not as much in the right as they pretend to be. From my perspective, the western political establishment is, through the corporate media, daily pushing propaganda to support their narrative. When it comes to individuals, it would be nice if we could all respect each other's right to our own opinions without attacking other people's intelligence, attacking their character, or accusing them of bad faith.
- SkinTaco 5y ago
  Interesting, I wasn't aware there was any ambiguity. To be honest I'm not really paying any attention to it though. What kinds of reasons (valid or invalid) is Russia giving? Are there actually nazis in Ukraine?
  - stormbrew 5y ago
    While the Azov Batallion is definitely a concerning and real thing, it's worth noting that Ukraine's president is Jewish. It's a particularly twisted sort of irony to talk of "de-nazifying" a country while also trying to assassinate its Jewish president.
  - decremental 5y ago
    Yeah, they call themselves the Azov Battalion. They're open about it. Whether or not that's an actual concern of Russia is debeatable but the nazi presence in Ukraine has been largely suppressed by our media so as to not taint the narrative of good vs. evil. As you can imagine it's a very inconvenient truth.
    - exogeny 5y ago
      I think it's more that than no one sane would consider the presence of Nazis as justification for Russian slaughtering innocent civilians.
    - mickotron 5y ago
      And there aren’t any White Supremacist or Nazi groups in Russia that have influence? Or the US? Or Poland, France? Should they all get invaded? It’s a smokescreen, dude.
      - decremental 5y ago
        I didn't suggest otherwise or express any interest in the justification for invasion. Merely noted that it's real and that out of convenience is ignored to drive a narrative. The same media will ignore nazis in Ukraine while simultaneously declaring that white nationalism is the greatest threat to democracy in America. Propaganda is used heavily by all sides and the only thing you can do is recognize that and hopefully see through it.
        sangnoir 5y ago
        https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/pentagon-report-warns-threat-white-supremacists-inside-military-n1258871 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/pentagon-report-warns-...
        MrMan 5y ago
        white nationalism is a literal threat to America as I understand it, which is a whole contiguous US that is not at civil war.
      - shkkmo 5y ago
        The Azov Battalion is an officially sanctioned ukranian military unit that has been directly involved in fighting pro-russian forces and potentially been involved in war crimes documented by the UN. They absolutely don't justify the invasion of Ukraine and are a smokescreen, but that doesn't mean that they aren't problematic. There is a reason the US blocked military aid to them in 2018.
  - pclmulqdq 5y ago
    There are Nazis in Ukraine, see the Azov Battalion for example. There have been several instances where western media has picked up pictures of Ukranian fighters and readers have pointed out Nazi symbols on their uniforms. That said, I don't think even the Russians thought this war was about "De-nazification" despite that being the official line. Their focus has been on taking over the Donbas region and securing utilities for Crimea (another stated purpose of the war). Also, it's worth pointing out that we in the west think of Nazis as primarily being anti-semitic, but Russians think of them as primarily anti-Russian, so claiming to be fighting Nazis is a good line to get popular support in Russia.
- mickotron 5y ago
  So you think the invasion was justified? I believe the US and friends are not saints. But whataboutism is meaningless when cities are being destroyed and civilians are losing their lives, regardless of where it is.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    I don’t think the invasion was justified per se, but I think it was a predictable outcome of what the west was doing. The fact of “civilian losing their lives” is where I think creates the differences in views. For many people, especially Americans, they can’t get past that or put the body count in perspective. Others, and I think this includes much of the non-western world, are more like “well people die, what’s special about this?” I don’t say that to be callous, my point is that 50,000-100,000 people die annually in state based conflicts, and everyone morally triages them, and that can produce different results. UNHR estimates 2,000 civilian deaths so far in Ukraine. That was a typical number for (1,500-3,500) for civilian deaths in Afghanistan each year for the past decade. And you probably didn’t post anything about it on your Facebook, right? So let’s get past deaths. What’s happening in Ukraine? The 20th century conflict between the “first world” and the “second world”—a conflict so epic that the terminology has become part of our vernacular—ended with the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. When empires collapse they don’t just vanish. There was an informal agreement among all involved that the west would leave Russia its space. Remember, we were fighting against the Soviets in places like Korea and Vietnam. So giving them a buffer in Eastern Europe against NATO was a good deal. Maintaining buffer states to avoid conflict between major powers is a centuries old practice rooted in pragmatic considerations. So what happened? NATO reneged by gobbling up Eastern European countries and pushing ever closer to Russia’s border. Russia sees NATO encroaching closer and closer to their border, flirting with allowing membership of a country in Russia’s border. What were they going to do?
    - mickotron 5y ago
      If your country/city was being shelled, you wouldn’t have the luxury of turning this into an abstract intellectual exercise. What happened in Afghanistan was devastating and horrific. You think because I’m a Westerner that I have “picked a side” and look past our own crimes. I don’t. Russia also reneged. They agreed to protect Ukraine’s borders and sovereignty.
- revscat 5y ago
  > I've been accused several times recently of believing "Russian propaganda" about the war in Ukraine which of course I find very offensive. When and by whom?

If you look up the archive from that time frame, you'll see that /r/russia was pure Russian propaganda.

by afpx 5y ago

If you look up the archive from that time frame, you'll see that /r/russia was pure Russian propaganda.

I've been accused several times recently of believing "Russian propaganda" about the war in Ukraine which of course I find very offensive. I'm an intelligent person, I've analyzed the situation, listened to different sources, and come to the conclusion that the western powers, the US in particular, and to some degree Ukraine, are not as much in the right as they pretend to be. From my perspective, the western political establishment is, through the corporate media, daily pushing propaganda to support their narrative. When it comes to individuals, it would be nice if we could all respect each other's right to our own opinions without attacking other people's intelligence, attacking their character, or accusing them of bad faith.

SkinTaco 5y ago
Interesting, I wasn't aware there was any ambiguity. To be honest I'm not really paying any attention to it though. What kinds of reasons (valid or invalid) is Russia giving? Are there actually nazis in Ukraine?
- stormbrew 5y ago
  While the Azov Batallion is definitely a concerning and real thing, it's worth noting that Ukraine's president is Jewish. It's a particularly twisted sort of irony to talk of "de-nazifying" a country while also trying to assassinate its Jewish president.
- decremental 5y ago
  Yeah, they call themselves the Azov Battalion. They're open about it. Whether or not that's an actual concern of Russia is debeatable but the nazi presence in Ukraine has been largely suppressed by our media so as to not taint the narrative of good vs. evil. As you can imagine it's a very inconvenient truth.
  - exogeny 5y ago
    I think it's more that than no one sane would consider the presence of Nazis as justification for Russian slaughtering innocent civilians.
  - mickotron 5y ago
    And there aren’t any White Supremacist or Nazi groups in Russia that have influence? Or the US? Or Poland, France? Should they all get invaded? It’s a smokescreen, dude.
    - decremental 5y ago
      I didn't suggest otherwise or express any interest in the justification for invasion. Merely noted that it's real and that out of convenience is ignored to drive a narrative. The same media will ignore nazis in Ukraine while simultaneously declaring that white nationalism is the greatest threat to democracy in America. Propaganda is used heavily by all sides and the only thing you can do is recognize that and hopefully see through it.
      - sangnoir 5y ago
        https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/pentagon-report-warns-threat-white-supremacists-inside-military-n1258871 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/pentagon-report-warns-...
      - MrMan 5y ago
        white nationalism is a literal threat to America as I understand it, which is a whole contiguous US that is not at civil war.
    - shkkmo 5y ago
      The Azov Battalion is an officially sanctioned ukranian military unit that has been directly involved in fighting pro-russian forces and potentially been involved in war crimes documented by the UN. They absolutely don't justify the invasion of Ukraine and are a smokescreen, but that doesn't mean that they aren't problematic. There is a reason the US blocked military aid to them in 2018.
- pclmulqdq 5y ago
  There are Nazis in Ukraine, see the Azov Battalion for example. There have been several instances where western media has picked up pictures of Ukranian fighters and readers have pointed out Nazi symbols on their uniforms. That said, I don't think even the Russians thought this war was about "De-nazification" despite that being the official line. Their focus has been on taking over the Donbas region and securing utilities for Crimea (another stated purpose of the war). Also, it's worth pointing out that we in the west think of Nazis as primarily being anti-semitic, but Russians think of them as primarily anti-Russian, so claiming to be fighting Nazis is a good line to get popular support in Russia.
mickotron 5y ago
So you think the invasion was justified? I believe the US and friends are not saints. But whataboutism is meaningless when cities are being destroyed and civilians are losing their lives, regardless of where it is.
- rayiner 5y ago
  I don’t think the invasion was justified per se, but I think it was a predictable outcome of what the west was doing. The fact of “civilian losing their lives” is where I think creates the differences in views. For many people, especially Americans, they can’t get past that or put the body count in perspective. Others, and I think this includes much of the non-western world, are more like “well people die, what’s special about this?” I don’t say that to be callous, my point is that 50,000-100,000 people die annually in state based conflicts, and everyone morally triages them, and that can produce different results. UNHR estimates 2,000 civilian deaths so far in Ukraine. That was a typical number for (1,500-3,500) for civilian deaths in Afghanistan each year for the past decade. And you probably didn’t post anything about it on your Facebook, right? So let’s get past deaths. What’s happening in Ukraine? The 20th century conflict between the “first world” and the “second world”—a conflict so epic that the terminology has become part of our vernacular—ended with the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. When empires collapse they don’t just vanish. There was an informal agreement among all involved that the west would leave Russia its space. Remember, we were fighting against the Soviets in places like Korea and Vietnam. So giving them a buffer in Eastern Europe against NATO was a good deal. Maintaining buffer states to avoid conflict between major powers is a centuries old practice rooted in pragmatic considerations. So what happened? NATO reneged by gobbling up Eastern European countries and pushing ever closer to Russia’s border. Russia sees NATO encroaching closer and closer to their border, flirting with allowing membership of a country in Russia’s border. What were they going to do?
  - mickotron 5y ago
    If your country/city was being shelled, you wouldn’t have the luxury of turning this into an abstract intellectual exercise. What happened in Afghanistan was devastating and horrific. You think because I’m a Westerner that I have “picked a side” and look past our own crimes. I don’t. Russia also reneged. They agreed to protect Ukraine’s borders and sovereignty.
revscat 5y ago
> I've been accused several times recently of believing "Russian propaganda" about the war in Ukraine which of course I find very offensive. When and by whom?