5 ms·

Ask HN: Ethics of a carnivore diet?

I hear a lot of people here talk about the ethics of meat consumption and I tend to agree that it would be better to produce less emissions. However I have also heard people who had autoimmune issues get much better from trying a carnivore diet. I have some such issues that make me want to try this but I also want to consider the impact this will have on others. If I am eating meat to maybe solve a medical problem then maybe that is less bad than somebody who eats it just because it tastes good, but on the other hand the lifetime impact of somebody eating essentially all meat is significant for carbon. Thoughts? Btw I hope that in the long term lab grown meat will make this less of a problem.

hirundo 4y ago
If you can afford to source meat grown with regenerative agriculture you can be doing something positive both for the environment and your health. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYLWy3hkH2Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYLWy3hkH2Y This has been excellent for my own health. I'm working my way through a grass fed cow I bought from a local rancher. It's quite pleasant work. In a year and a half of carnivory I've lost 75 excess pounds, all of my diabetes symptoms, and several inflammatory complaints.
- meatythrowaway 4y ago
  Sounds expensive but I will look into it. I am trying to buy mostly meat that's farmed in relatively humane and sustainable ways but this looks promising. Appreciate the advice!
MathMonkeyMan 4y ago
I eat meat, but I doubt I would kill an animal to do so. The carbon footprint of eating meat is a thing, but I don't know... doesn't have the ring of importance. If you think you can treat an autoimmune disorder by eating a lot of meat, then why not try it? Just bear in mind that it is in other ways harmful to your health compared to vegetarianism [citation needed].
- meatythrowaway 4y ago
  I'm just hoping lab grown meat gets big enough soon enough. And I'm definitely aware of the risks. I'll have to be really careful about watching my blood markers and nutrient intake but my doctor agrees and is overseeing and is ordering the appropriate tests. Thankfully I don't have a family history at all of most of the cancers increased meat intake is known to cause.
  - scantis 4y ago
    You sound exactly like a good friend of mine. He is hypochondriac with an orthorexia nervosa. He also suffers from weltschmerz due to environmental concerns. We full heartedly disagree on certain topics, but it is okay and he said I helped him alot. In my opinion you can not eat yourself healthy and you have way to little impact to be of any concern to this planet. You can definitely eat yourself sick, so be careful.
dTal 4y ago
Something to keep in mind is that from a purely utilitarian standpoint, eating vegetarian 9 times out of 10 is 90% as good for the planet as doing so 10/10 times. There's no utility bonus for being a gold star vegetarian. So don't feel as if you have to choose between being a "real" vegetarian, and being a full-on carnivore - best effort is better than nothing!
- meatythrowaway 4y ago
  I agree, but this would be an all-meat diet to test effects on my autoimmune issues. If it doesn't work I would be back to mostly plant-based but my doctor and I agree we are out of other ideas.
annobirdy 4y ago
Look this isn't the answer you want but no amount of meat is ethical. A living being has to die and there's no way to justify that that doesn't lean into some kind of cop out supremacist argument. Nutritionally, it's been shown again and again that plant based diets are healthier than meat eating diets. And not just that, but there is actual science to back this up. Compare the science for plant based diets (https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/veganscience/ https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/veganscience/) to the basically non-existent studies regarding human carnivore diets. I'd highly recommend having a start here for some general resources: https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/index/ https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/index/ It's better for yourself, the planet, and the animals to be open to going down this route. Don't buy into the weird unscientific propoganda from the carnivore club, look at the research, and question why you're concerned about the ethics of meat eating to begin with and maybe explore that to the fullest extent.
- meatythrowaway 4y ago
  I'm not contesting that plant based diets are very healthy, it's what I mostly eat now. This is something I'm discussing with a doctor because we are out of other options, think an extreme elimination diet. I am mostly interested in how I can offset the climate impact with less unethical meat sources, carbon capture, other lifestyle changes etc. FWIW most people don't agree with you on the ethics of killing animals for food. I prefer to minimize suffering where necessary but do not see a problem if that is what a sentient being needs to live. As I said in my post though I hope lab grown meat soon makes killing any animals for food unnecessary.
- cercatrova 4y ago
  > Look this isn't the answer you want but no amount of meat is ethical. A living being has to die and there's no way to justify that that doesn't lean into some kind of cop out supremacist argument. This is contingent on your specific version of ethics, which not everyone (I'd argue most people) shares. Otherwise, barring those who have only meat to survive such as in the arctic, everyone would be vegan. That being said, I'd be wary of an all-meat diet, OP should carefully evaluate whether they're getting all their nutrients from only meat, and not develop other issues like rhabdomyolysis.
MrVandemar 4y ago
I don't know about ethics, as such, but you, as a consumer, can make decisions that are better than others. For example: it's better for your health to eat pasture-raised, free-range animals (and stay well away from feedlot raised). The nutrition profile of the meat is much better. Try buying from a butcher instead of a supermarket, and you'll be supporting a small business and probably get better product. Buy good quality and have it less frequently, than buy poor quality and eat it every day. Ethics aside, you can do compensatory actions in another area. Tree planting, habitat rehabilitation, eschew car ownership and take the bus/bike/walk, invest in renewables, donate to or volunteer at environmental charities, volunteer etc. To be effective, I guess link your meat consumption to your compensation. Eg: every 1kg of steak donate $2, or 10kg plant a tree, or whatever ... You also aren't obliged to eat meat all the time. Why not just twice a week? Disclaimer: lives on a farm in AU, eat our own meat, lives in an eco house, off grid, with an ambitious tree planting program. AMA if you want.
- meatythrowaway 4y ago
  Thanks, good ideas! I'm definitely interested in how I could invest in some carbon sink to offset the emissions. The idea is an extreme elimination diet for everything else so eating less isn't really a good option since that means my calories would go below maintenance. I'll look into some options on purchasing carbon capture services since I know some of those exist and that can directly offset the impact, do you know any reputable providers who actually do what they say?
  - MrVandemar 4y ago
    I haven't looked into it I'm afraid. However, if any of what you're looking at is tree planting, remember: * "Planting a tree" implies a mature tree in 20 years time. Actually, it means someone dug a hole and put a seedling in it, that may well die in 3 months time if not cared for or planted in a place where it will survive. * Some carbon capture are basically tree plantations, which after n years, will cease to be carbon storage and suddenly become newspulp and then landfill. * Tree plantations are not habitat or an ecosystem - they are monocultures where very little else lives or grows. Do your research is all I can offer here.
easytiger 4y ago
You are starting from an assumption it is unethical barring some exceptions. That is false.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- yesenadam 4y ago
  > That is false. I and many other people believe it's true, with quite a lot of reason and evidence of all kinds, not just "This is what's always been done." Your just saying "That is false" seems merely a less polite version of "I don't agree", i.e. "You are wrong." Hopefully exchanges on HN can do better than that.
  - easytiger 4y ago
    What's to disagree. It is indeed an opinion. That you seem to think yours is beyond question is telling. Practically all humans on earth agree with me and have done for several hundred thousand years. Your argument stems from a constructed stance of moral purity; akin to religious pleas to embrace poverty and self flagellation.
DoreenMichele 4y ago
What exactly is your diagnosis? What autoimmune issues do you have?
- meatythrowaway 4y ago
  That's something pretty personal that I'd prefer to keep between me and my doctor. There's a good chance this won't work and I will be back on a mostly plant-based diet but we are at the point where it is worth trying.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
underdogadmin 4y ago
I did this for a month and it was great as far as feeling better. I’m someone who’s had annoying, uncomfortable psoriasis and to be honest it was already going away for about 1.5 months prior to starting carnivore. This was the only diet that I was able to stick to after 5 days of an adjustment period. Bulletproof coffee, athletic greens, vitamin d and turmeric supplements along with the meat meals usually cooked with duck fat and decent quality salt. Try and find coffee that’s not too acidic if you’re a into caffeine. My heartburn/acid reflux went away and skin itching regressed as well. I also didn’t crash throughout the day and my sleep was great. I didn’t think twice about emissions when it came to trying to get my body to a better place. Maybe you can do something passively if you really want to. If you have stubborn autoimmune issues you may need to keep it going for 3 months to get an accurate read on if you’re improving. Good luck with whatever you end up going with!
- polishdude20 4y ago
  What sort of meat meals did you cook?
  - underdogadmin 4y ago
    bacon & eggs, ground beef, steaks, burger patties, ribs, pork rind chips, wendys double-baconator (no buns or fries), fish, salmon, kippers, and bbq meats.
sergiotapia 4y ago
What you do as an individual is microscopic compared to what corporations do. You are going to punish yourself for what - for big corp to continue to destroy the world. If you really want to see change politicians need to do the work, not you.
cjbprime 4y ago
If you're only worried about environmental impact, I suppose you could try doing something with carbon offsets? If you also care about animal suffering, some foods have much more impact than others, see e.g. https://thinkbynumbers.org/utilitarianism/direct-suffering-caused-animal-foods/ https://thinkbynumbers.org/utilitarianism/direct-suffering-c...
landa 4y ago
Who cares about emissions, seriously? Imagine millions of humans were being slaughtered instead of animals. I'm glad you're thinking about this, but the big problem with eating meat is not emissions, it's the suffering of millions of sentient beings. For all others: Please go ahead and downvote this comment. You're not a lion hunting prey for food. You're just a guy buying a dead animal at a store. As for your original question, I became a vegetarian 5 years ago and it's only had a positive impact on my health.
- cercatrova 4y ago
  Why would you slaughter humans? They have more value to society than meat, such as in economic output. Non-human animals have no such utility, that's why they're used for meat. (Well, I guess draft animals have been used in farming, so that's extra utility they have, but we have industrialization for that now.)
  - SheinhardtWigCo 4y ago
    I feel like I just stumbled into an Amazon executive team meeting.
    - cercatrova 4y ago
      I'm only being half serious, but it's true that not everyone shares the same ethical beliefs about animals as vegans do.
      - scantis 4y ago
        Vegans even differ in ethical beliefs. Some of them belief animals should be spared from the cruelty of life all together and wish them all to vanish. Some have more love for animals and just hate the cruelty of mass farming, but become ethical hunters sometimes.
    - thiht 4y ago
      That’s how a large part of the world thinks though.
euroderf 4y ago
I like the flavor of meat, but as an environmental move, I'm willing to use meat as a flavoring - rather than as meal's centerpiece lump.
lordkrandel 4y ago
Just to have a true and simple statement: I don't have any ethics about eating. Maybe attention for health and taste.
drooby 4y ago
There is also evidence to suggest that diets with lots of vegetables are good for auto-immune disease by lowering inflammation. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-weight/diet-reviews/anti-inflammatory-diet/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-weight/... Have you tried the Mediterranean diet? The most ethical diet that includes meat, in my opinion, is eating mostly plants and then hunting your own meat. Most people also don’t need nearly as much meat as they think they do. 1-2 servings per week could be sufficient - which could be easily covered by fishing or hunting a few times per year and then freezing.
meristohm 4y ago
In reading through the 34 comments I don't see any mention of going longer without food (fasting) to address autoimmune and inflammation issues.[0] Ethics: the best I can say is "that's cultural", and often personal. We're all doing whatever we want, and sometimes our values align enough to get along for a long time. I ate a lot of meat for about a year (or so; I didn't keep a log) and then stopped for a couple reasons, including environmental impact. I grew up on a farm, I've butchered animals and eaten them, I've hunted, and I see every living creature as an individual person worthy of respect. And still I kill them. If we were more honest about this when we go to war I think we'd be better off, rather than all the othering and dehumanizing that is so effective.[1] My internet-stranger advice would be to practice going without food for longer and longer (it took me about two months to go past the ~48 hours when autophagy starts; I paced myself so I could keep an even keel at work (parenting/homemaking)), and then break your fast with an amazing meal, starting with foods high in fiber (something about how the food progresses through the intestines, and absorbing nutrients, and not spiking insulin), and including whatever you want (I only want high-quality, healthy food for these meals, maybe ending with more carbohydrates at the end). Meat seems like a reasonable inclusion if eating fewer meals. Fasting and feasting is different than calorie restriction; the former I find empowering and self-respecting, the latter I found torturous. In any case, I hope you figure it out, and good luck! References: [0] Life in the Fasting Lane, by Jason Fung, Eve Mayer, and Megan Ramos [1] On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society, by Dave Grossman

hirundo 4y ago

If you can afford to source meat grown with regenerative agriculture you can be doing something positive both for the environment and your health. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYLWy3hkH2Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYLWy3hkH2Y This has been excellent for my own health. I'm working my way through a grass fed cow I bought from a local rancher. It's quite pleasant work. In a year and a half of carnivory I've lost 75 excess pounds, all of my diabetes symptoms, and several inflammatory complaints.

meatythrowaway 4y ago
Sounds expensive but I will look into it. I am trying to buy mostly meat that's farmed in relatively humane and sustainable ways but this looks promising. Appreciate the advice!

MathMonkeyMan 4y ago

I eat meat, but I doubt I would kill an animal to do so. The carbon footprint of eating meat is a thing, but I don't know... doesn't have the ring of importance. If you think you can treat an autoimmune disorder by eating a lot of meat, then why not try it? Just bear in mind that it is in other ways harmful to your health compared to vegetarianism [citation needed].

meatythrowaway 4y ago
I'm just hoping lab grown meat gets big enough soon enough. And I'm definitely aware of the risks. I'll have to be really careful about watching my blood markers and nutrient intake but my doctor agrees and is overseeing and is ordering the appropriate tests. Thankfully I don't have a family history at all of most of the cancers increased meat intake is known to cause.
- scantis 4y ago
  You sound exactly like a good friend of mine. He is hypochondriac with an orthorexia nervosa. He also suffers from weltschmerz due to environmental concerns. We full heartedly disagree on certain topics, but it is okay and he said I helped him alot. In my opinion you can not eat yourself healthy and you have way to little impact to be of any concern to this planet. You can definitely eat yourself sick, so be careful.

dTal 4y ago

Something to keep in mind is that from a purely utilitarian standpoint, eating vegetarian 9 times out of 10 is 90% as good for the planet as doing so 10/10 times. There's no utility bonus for being a gold star vegetarian. So don't feel as if you have to choose between being a "real" vegetarian, and being a full-on carnivore - best effort is better than nothing!

meatythrowaway 4y ago
I agree, but this would be an all-meat diet to test effects on my autoimmune issues. If it doesn't work I would be back to mostly plant-based but my doctor and I agree we are out of other ideas.

annobirdy 4y ago

Look this isn't the answer you want but no amount of meat is ethical. A living being has to die and there's no way to justify that that doesn't lean into some kind of cop out supremacist argument. Nutritionally, it's been shown again and again that plant based diets are healthier than meat eating diets. And not just that, but there is actual science to back this up. Compare the science for plant based diets (https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/veganscience/ https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/veganscience/) to the basically non-existent studies regarding human carnivore diets. I'd highly recommend having a start here for some general resources: https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/index/ https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/wiki/index/ It's better for yourself, the planet, and the animals to be open to going down this route. Don't buy into the weird unscientific propoganda from the carnivore club, look at the research, and question why you're concerned about the ethics of meat eating to begin with and maybe explore that to the fullest extent.

meatythrowaway 4y ago
I'm not contesting that plant based diets are very healthy, it's what I mostly eat now. This is something I'm discussing with a doctor because we are out of other options, think an extreme elimination diet. I am mostly interested in how I can offset the climate impact with less unethical meat sources, carbon capture, other lifestyle changes etc. FWIW most people don't agree with you on the ethics of killing animals for food. I prefer to minimize suffering where necessary but do not see a problem if that is what a sentient being needs to live. As I said in my post though I hope lab grown meat soon makes killing any animals for food unnecessary.
cercatrova 4y ago
> Look this isn't the answer you want but no amount of meat is ethical. A living being has to die and there's no way to justify that that doesn't lean into some kind of cop out supremacist argument. This is contingent on your specific version of ethics, which not everyone (I'd argue most people) shares. Otherwise, barring those who have only meat to survive such as in the arctic, everyone would be vegan. That being said, I'd be wary of an all-meat diet, OP should carefully evaluate whether they're getting all their nutrients from only meat, and not develop other issues like rhabdomyolysis.

MrVandemar 4y ago

I don't know about ethics, as such, but you, as a consumer, can make decisions that are better than others. For example: it's better for your health to eat pasture-raised, free-range animals (and stay well away from feedlot raised). The nutrition profile of the meat is much better. Try buying from a butcher instead of a supermarket, and you'll be supporting a small business and probably get better product. Buy good quality and have it less frequently, than buy poor quality and eat it every day. Ethics aside, you can do compensatory actions in another area. Tree planting, habitat rehabilitation, eschew car ownership and take the bus/bike/walk, invest in renewables, donate to or volunteer at environmental charities, volunteer etc. To be effective, I guess link your meat consumption to your compensation. Eg: every 1kg of steak donate $2, or 10kg plant a tree, or whatever ... You also aren't obliged to eat meat all the time. Why not just twice a week? Disclaimer: lives on a farm in AU, eat our own meat, lives in an eco house, off grid, with an ambitious tree planting program. AMA if you want.

meatythrowaway 4y ago
Thanks, good ideas! I'm definitely interested in how I could invest in some carbon sink to offset the emissions. The idea is an extreme elimination diet for everything else so eating less isn't really a good option since that means my calories would go below maintenance. I'll look into some options on purchasing carbon capture services since I know some of those exist and that can directly offset the impact, do you know any reputable providers who actually do what they say?
- MrVandemar 4y ago
  I haven't looked into it I'm afraid. However, if any of what you're looking at is tree planting, remember: * "Planting a tree" implies a mature tree in 20 years time. Actually, it means someone dug a hole and put a seedling in it, that may well die in 3 months time if not cared for or planted in a place where it will survive. * Some carbon capture are basically tree plantations, which after n years, will cease to be carbon storage and suddenly become newspulp and then landfill. * Tree plantations are not habitat or an ecosystem - they are monocultures where very little else lives or grows. Do your research is all I can offer here.

easytiger 4y ago

You are starting from an assumption it is unethical barring some exceptions. That is false.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
yesenadam 4y ago
> That is false. I and many other people believe it's true, with quite a lot of reason and evidence of all kinds, not just "This is what's always been done." Your just saying "That is false" seems merely a less polite version of "I don't agree", i.e. "You are wrong." Hopefully exchanges on HN can do better than that.
- easytiger 4y ago
  What's to disagree. It is indeed an opinion. That you seem to think yours is beyond question is telling. Practically all humans on earth agree with me and have done for several hundred thousand years. Your argument stems from a constructed stance of moral purity; akin to religious pleas to embrace poverty and self flagellation.

DoreenMichele 4y ago

What exactly is your diagnosis? What autoimmune issues do you have?

meatythrowaway 4y ago
That's something pretty personal that I'd prefer to keep between me and my doctor. There's a good chance this won't work and I will be back on a mostly plant-based diet but we are at the point where it is worth trying.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

underdogadmin 4y ago

I did this for a month and it was great as far as feeling better. I’m someone who’s had annoying, uncomfortable psoriasis and to be honest it was already going away for about 1.5 months prior to starting carnivore. This was the only diet that I was able to stick to after 5 days of an adjustment period. Bulletproof coffee, athletic greens, vitamin d and turmeric supplements along with the meat meals usually cooked with duck fat and decent quality salt. Try and find coffee that’s not too acidic if you’re a into caffeine. My heartburn/acid reflux went away and skin itching regressed as well. I also didn’t crash throughout the day and my sleep was great. I didn’t think twice about emissions when it came to trying to get my body to a better place. Maybe you can do something passively if you really want to. If you have stubborn autoimmune issues you may need to keep it going for 3 months to get an accurate read on if you’re improving. Good luck with whatever you end up going with!

polishdude20 4y ago
What sort of meat meals did you cook?
- underdogadmin 4y ago
  bacon & eggs, ground beef, steaks, burger patties, ribs, pork rind chips, wendys double-baconator (no buns or fries), fish, salmon, kippers, and bbq meats.

sergiotapia 4y ago

What you do as an individual is microscopic compared to what corporations do. You are going to punish yourself for what - for big corp to continue to destroy the world. If you really want to see change politicians need to do the work, not you.

cjbprime 4y ago

If you're only worried about environmental impact, I suppose you could try doing something with carbon offsets? If you also care about animal suffering, some foods have much more impact than others, see e.g. https://thinkbynumbers.org/utilitarianism/direct-suffering-caused-animal-foods/ https://thinkbynumbers.org/utilitarianism/direct-suffering-c...

landa 4y ago

Who cares about emissions, seriously? Imagine millions of humans were being slaughtered instead of animals. I'm glad you're thinking about this, but the big problem with eating meat is not emissions, it's the suffering of millions of sentient beings. For all others: Please go ahead and downvote this comment. You're not a lion hunting prey for food. You're just a guy buying a dead animal at a store. As for your original question, I became a vegetarian 5 years ago and it's only had a positive impact on my health.

cercatrova 4y ago
Why would you slaughter humans? They have more value to society than meat, such as in economic output. Non-human animals have no such utility, that's why they're used for meat. (Well, I guess draft animals have been used in farming, so that's extra utility they have, but we have industrialization for that now.)
- SheinhardtWigCo 4y ago
  I feel like I just stumbled into an Amazon executive team meeting.
  - cercatrova 4y ago
    I'm only being half serious, but it's true that not everyone shares the same ethical beliefs about animals as vegans do.
    - scantis 4y ago
      Vegans even differ in ethical beliefs. Some of them belief animals should be spared from the cruelty of life all together and wish them all to vanish. Some have more love for animals and just hate the cruelty of mass farming, but become ethical hunters sometimes.
  - thiht 4y ago
    That’s how a large part of the world thinks though.

euroderf 4y ago

I like the flavor of meat, but as an environmental move, I'm willing to use meat as a flavoring - rather than as meal's centerpiece lump.

lordkrandel 4y ago

Just to have a true and simple statement: I don't have any ethics about eating. Maybe attention for health and taste.

drooby 4y ago

There is also evidence to suggest that diets with lots of vegetables are good for auto-immune disease by lowering inflammation. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-weight/diet-reviews/anti-inflammatory-diet/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-weight/... Have you tried the Mediterranean diet? The most ethical diet that includes meat, in my opinion, is eating mostly plants and then hunting your own meat. Most people also don’t need nearly as much meat as they think they do. 1-2 servings per week could be sufficient - which could be easily covered by fishing or hunting a few times per year and then freezing.

meristohm 4y ago

In reading through the 34 comments I don't see any mention of going longer without food (fasting) to address autoimmune and inflammation issues.[0] Ethics: the best I can say is "that's cultural", and often personal. We're all doing whatever we want, and sometimes our values align enough to get along for a long time. I ate a lot of meat for about a year (or so; I didn't keep a log) and then stopped for a couple reasons, including environmental impact. I grew up on a farm, I've butchered animals and eaten them, I've hunted, and I see every living creature as an individual person worthy of respect. And still I kill them. If we were more honest about this when we go to war I think we'd be better off, rather than all the othering and dehumanizing that is so effective.[1] My internet-stranger advice would be to practice going without food for longer and longer (it took me about two months to go past the ~48 hours when autophagy starts; I paced myself so I could keep an even keel at work (parenting/homemaking)), and then break your fast with an amazing meal, starting with foods high in fiber (something about how the food progresses through the intestines, and absorbing nutrients, and not spiking insulin), and including whatever you want (I only want high-quality, healthy food for these meals, maybe ending with more carbohydrates at the end). Meat seems like a reasonable inclusion if eating fewer meals. Fasting and feasting is different than calorie restriction; the former I find empowering and self-respecting, the latter I found torturous. In any case, I hope you figure it out, and good luck! References: [0] Life in the Fasting Lane, by Jason Fung, Eve Mayer, and Megan Ramos [1] On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society, by Dave Grossman