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But - Ukraine isn't under Western control - Ukraine wasn't a security concern for Russia (didn't pursue NATO, was shunned by the west regarding military aid)

by oezi 5y ago

But - Ukraine isn't under Western control - Ukraine wasn't a security concern for Russia (didn't pursue NATO, was shunned by the west regarding military aid) - Even if a country is a concern to another, it just isn't acceptable to go on a genocidal war and take all civilian casualties as collateral damage.

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
I addressed the other two points in other posts and I don't really want to repeat it. Still, this one caught my attention: << Even if a country is a concern to another, it just isn't acceptable to go on a genocidal war and take all civilian casualties as collateral damage. Yes? And yet it is seems to be happening all the time. In a very practical sense, it is kinda hard to enforce the kind of protections needed not to offend certain sensibilities. There is a reason war is not something one should haphazardly go into. Don't get me wrong. I don't really want to discourage your moral outrage over how the world should be and how it apparently is. You are saying it is not acceptable, but the world is on the verge of accepting it. It is only US pressure that might, and I am stressing might, change the outcome here. Decided to edit after all: << Ukraine isn't under Western control Qualified yes. What do you think this war is about? Freedom? Democracy? It is not a trick question. There are a lot of players, power centers and interested parties and they all have their agendas. For Poland, it is about having a buffer zone. For US, it is about who controls Ukraine. Up until recently it was controlled by Russia. That control slipped with ouster of Yanukovych ( and we can spend some time discussing to what extent western powers influenced that ouster ). I don't want to spend too much time on this though, because I am worried we do not share the same background when it comes to the region. << Ukraine wasn't a security concern for Russia (didn't pursue NATO, was shunned by the west regarding military aid) Um.. citation and some dates may be needed to back up that claim. Still, for the sake of argument let us assume, none of the previous administrations did; not just US, but EU as well. Details are kind of messy. Still, why would Ukraine be a security concern while their personal puppet was governing Ukraine? I am being serious here. It was the orange revolution and Georgia that changed the calculus. NATO membership became an issue after a west-looking leadership was elected.

by oezi 5y ago

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago

I addressed the other two points in other posts and I don't really want to repeat it. Still, this one caught my attention: << Even if a country is a concern to another, it just isn't acceptable to go on a genocidal war and take all civilian casualties as collateral damage. Yes? And yet it is seems to be happening all the time. In a very practical sense, it is kinda hard to enforce the kind of protections needed not to offend certain sensibilities. There is a reason war is not something one should haphazardly go into. Don't get me wrong. I don't really want to discourage your moral outrage over how the world should be and how it apparently is. You are saying it is not acceptable, but the world is on the verge of accepting it. It is only US pressure that might, and I am stressing might, change the outcome here. Decided to edit after all: << Ukraine isn't under Western control Qualified yes. What do you think this war is about? Freedom? Democracy? It is not a trick question. There are a lot of players, power centers and interested parties and they all have their agendas. For Poland, it is about having a buffer zone. For US, it is about who controls Ukraine. Up until recently it was controlled by Russia. That control slipped with ouster of Yanukovych ( and we can spend some time discussing to what extent western powers influenced that ouster ). I don't want to spend too much time on this though, because I am worried we do not share the same background when it comes to the region. << Ukraine wasn't a security concern for Russia (didn't pursue NATO, was shunned by the west regarding military aid) Um.. citation and some dates may be needed to back up that claim. Still, for the sake of argument let us assume, none of the previous administrations did; not just US, but EU as well. Details are kind of messy. Still, why would Ukraine be a security concern while their personal puppet was governing Ukraine? I am being serious here. It was the orange revolution and Georgia that changed the calculus. NATO membership became an issue after a west-looking leadership was elected.