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I was prepared to mock this before I even clicked, but I have to say this looks like a nice set of tools that follow the ancient Unix philosophy of "do one thin

I was prepared to mock this before I even clicked, but I have to say this looks like a nice set of tools that follow the ancient Unix philosophy of "do one thing, play nice in a pipeline, stfu if you have nothing useful to say". Bookmarking this to peer at until I internalize the apps. There's even an Ubuntu package for them. I don't think it's a good idea to rely on any of these being present. If you write a shell script to share and expect them to be there, you aren't being friendly to others, but for interactive command line use, I'm happy to adopt new tools.

_dain_ 5y ago
>I don't think it's a good idea to rely on any of these being present. If you write a shell script to share and expect them to be there, you aren't being friendly to others, but for interactive command line use, I'm happy to adopt new tools. Isn't that a shame though? Where does it say in the UNIX philosophy that the canon should be closed?
- caymanjim 5y ago
  I think it's fine if you're on a dev team that decides to include these tools in its shared toolkit, but none of these rise to the level that I think warrants them being a dependency for a broadly-distributed shell script. There are slightly-less-terse alternatives for most of the functionality that only rely on core utilities. I don't think it's being a good citizen to say "go install moreutils and its dozen components because I wanted to use sponge instead of >output.txt".
- Delk 5y ago
  It's not that different than refraining from using non-POSIX syntax in shell scripts that are meant to be independent of a specific flavour of unix, or sticking with standard C rather than making assumptions that are only valid in one compiler. There are shades of grey, of course. Bash is probably ubiquitous enough that it may not be a big issue if a script that's meant to be universal depends on it, as long as the script explicitly specifies bash in the shebang. Sometimes some particular functionality is not technically part of a standard but is widely enough supported in practice. Sometimes the standards (either formal or de facto) are expanded to include new functionality, and that's of course totally fine, but it's not likely to be a very quick process because there are almost certainly going to be differing opinions on what should be part of the core and what shouldn't. Either way, sometimes you want to write for the lowest common denominator, and moreutils certainly aren't common enough that they could be considered part of that.
nonrandomstring 5y ago
> Bookmarking this to peer at until I internalize the apps. There's even an Ubuntu package for them. Ditto. But I will probably forget they exist and go do the same old silly kludges with subshells and redirections. May I ask if anyone has a technique for introducing new CL tools into their everyday workflow? It helps if things have good man, apropos and help responses, but the problem is not how new tools function, rather remembering that they exist at all. Sometimes I think I want a kind of terminal "clippy" that says: "Looks like you're trying to match using regular expressions, would you like me to fzf that for you?" Then again, maybe not.
- chrisshroba 5y ago
  My two cents on this is that if you do something enough that one of these tools is a good tool for it, it’ll quickly become a habit to use the tool. And if there’s a rare case where one of these tools would have been useful but you forgot it existed, you’re probably not wasting too much time using a hackier solution. That being said, I’ve been meaning to add a Linux and Mac install.sh script to my dotfiles repo for installing all my CLI tools, and that could probably serve as a good reminder of all the tools you’ve come across over the years that might provide some value.
- bcbrown 5y ago
  > May I ask if anyone has a technique for introducing new CL tools into their everyday workflow? Pick one tool a year. Write it on a sticky note on your monitor. Every time you're doing something on the command line, ask yourself "would $TOOL be useful here?". You're not going to have high throughput on learning new tools this way, but it'll be pretty effective for the tools you do learn.
- ImprovedSilence 5y ago
  When you learn about a tool, actually think about a specific situation/use case where you would actually use it. Try it out as soon as you learn about it. I find I can only do one tool at a time. You remember it better if it’s something you would use frequently at the moment. If I get a big old list of useful stuff, I’d be lucky to actually incorporate more than 2 of them. At a time anyway. If you don’t remember the tool, it’s probably because you wouldn’t use it enough to retain knowledge of it..

_dain_ 5y ago

>I don't think it's a good idea to rely on any of these being present. If you write a shell script to share and expect them to be there, you aren't being friendly to others, but for interactive command line use, I'm happy to adopt new tools. Isn't that a shame though? Where does it say in the UNIX philosophy that the canon should be closed?

caymanjim 5y ago
I think it's fine if you're on a dev team that decides to include these tools in its shared toolkit, but none of these rise to the level that I think warrants them being a dependency for a broadly-distributed shell script. There are slightly-less-terse alternatives for most of the functionality that only rely on core utilities. I don't think it's being a good citizen to say "go install moreutils and its dozen components because I wanted to use sponge instead of >output.txt".
Delk 5y ago
It's not that different than refraining from using non-POSIX syntax in shell scripts that are meant to be independent of a specific flavour of unix, or sticking with standard C rather than making assumptions that are only valid in one compiler. There are shades of grey, of course. Bash is probably ubiquitous enough that it may not be a big issue if a script that's meant to be universal depends on it, as long as the script explicitly specifies bash in the shebang. Sometimes some particular functionality is not technically part of a standard but is widely enough supported in practice. Sometimes the standards (either formal or de facto) are expanded to include new functionality, and that's of course totally fine, but it's not likely to be a very quick process because there are almost certainly going to be differing opinions on what should be part of the core and what shouldn't. Either way, sometimes you want to write for the lowest common denominator, and moreutils certainly aren't common enough that they could be considered part of that.

nonrandomstring 5y ago

> Bookmarking this to peer at until I internalize the apps. There's even an Ubuntu package for them. Ditto. But I will probably forget they exist and go do the same old silly kludges with subshells and redirections. May I ask if anyone has a technique for introducing new CL tools into their everyday workflow? It helps if things have good man, apropos and help responses, but the problem is not how new tools function, rather remembering that they exist at all. Sometimes I think I want a kind of terminal "clippy" that says: "Looks like you're trying to match using regular expressions, would you like me to fzf that for you?" Then again, maybe not.

chrisshroba 5y ago
My two cents on this is that if you do something enough that one of these tools is a good tool for it, it’ll quickly become a habit to use the tool. And if there’s a rare case where one of these tools would have been useful but you forgot it existed, you’re probably not wasting too much time using a hackier solution. That being said, I’ve been meaning to add a Linux and Mac install.sh script to my dotfiles repo for installing all my CLI tools, and that could probably serve as a good reminder of all the tools you’ve come across over the years that might provide some value.
bcbrown 5y ago
> May I ask if anyone has a technique for introducing new CL tools into their everyday workflow? Pick one tool a year. Write it on a sticky note on your monitor. Every time you're doing something on the command line, ask yourself "would $TOOL be useful here?". You're not going to have high throughput on learning new tools this way, but it'll be pretty effective for the tools you do learn.
ImprovedSilence 5y ago
When you learn about a tool, actually think about a specific situation/use case where you would actually use it. Try it out as soon as you learn about it. I find I can only do one tool at a time. You remember it better if it’s something you would use frequently at the moment. If I get a big old list of useful stuff, I’d be lucky to actually incorporate more than 2 of them. At a time anyway. If you don’t remember the tool, it’s probably because you wouldn’t use it enough to retain knowledge of it..