7 ms·

Enlighten us? Nothing warrants or excuses the annexion of Crimea.

yucky 5y ago
Do you think the invasion and annexation of Crimea, had anything to do with the coup (ahem...pro-US/NATO revolution) that had just occurred in Ukraine[1]? Keep in mind Putin rolled his tanks into Crimea the day after the new pro-US/NATO regime in Ukraine had thrown out the democratically elected (albeit pro-Russia) government, and rewritten the Ukrainian Constitution[2] to then make it possible to drop neutrality[3] so that they could begin the process of joining NATO. A rule to join NATO is that a nation must be in control of its borders and not in active conflict, so by annexing Crimea, Russia ensured the moves to join NATO would be halted with that action. Understanding cause and effect is not the same as excusing it. If I poke a bear with a stick, and the bear eats me, it's my fault. Just because the bear went a little overboard doesn't change the fact that it's a bear and I should know not to poke it with a stick. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-constitution-idUSBREA1K17420140221 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-constituti... [3] https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-30594763 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-30594763
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  Almost verbatim identical to your last emission of this "coup" talking point: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31001317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31001317 and the time before that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30887629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30887629 Not to forget: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30653796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30653796 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30648054 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30648054
  - yucky 5y ago
    Yes, interesting how the facts don't change. If you'd like to challenge the facts, do so. Pointing out that facts have been posted before in response to the same questions, doesn't change the facts. Unless you think we can't trust BBC and Reuters...?
    - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
      And neither do the talking points change. Replying in good faith is pointless, they can and have been debunked multiple times already, it makes no odds to the effort to push this. As I said: > this kind of disinformation does not need to even be self-consistent or even that believable. But it does need to be relentlessly sent out.
      - yucky 5y ago
        We both know why you can't back up your claims with sources, and I can. And so does everybody reading this.
        SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
        sources been provided to you before. It didn't change your talking point then, so it's a waste of time now.
- federoccco 5y ago
  Democratically elected guy killed a hundred of protesters with snipers, and fled the country for the fear of retribution by his own security forces. Yet you call it a coup. I don’t see how changes to Constitution which limit the power of President could be related to whether or not Ukraine could be neutral.
  - yucky 5y ago
    We're discussing what the trigger was for the 2014 invasion. It's also worth discussing whether the response was justified, but it's a separate discussion as to what caused Russia to invade & annex Crimea in 2014. That was the reason. Pretending that Putin just woke up one day and decided to invade Ukraine isn't helpful to anybody since it makes it seem like you're being dishonest. Common sense can tell us Putin was itching for an excuse to annex Crimea, but then that leaves us with the very uncomfortable question of why the US pushed Ukraine into this situation knowing how Putin would respond. Ukraine is being used a pawn in a proxy war between the US and Russia. People need to call it what it is if they actually care to understand it.
    - federoccco 5y ago
      Let me tell you one thing — Yanukovich would go down, whether US interfered or not, there were enough of internal Ukrainian elites who wanted him to go. The whole US pushed Ukraine talk is delusional. Ukraine is not a pawn, it has it’s own interests which do not always align with the West. If 2014 invasion was somehow related to Euromaidan protests, this 2022 invasion has no relation to internal Ukrainian politics nor to it’s foreign policy — nothing has fundamentally changed. The only reason why Putin attacked now is because he felt he could get away with it — Ukraine was asking for weapons since October and got only light anti-tank weapons to fight insurgency war. Nobody in the West pushed Ukrainians to fight, what West really wants is business as usual. Yet now it becomes less and less possible due to Ukrainian information war. Repeating Russian propaganda narratives is not what makes you a sudden expert on Eastern European politics.
      - yucky 5y ago

Do you think the invasion and annexation of Crimea, had anything to do with the coup (ahem...pro-US/NATO revolution) that had just occurred in Ukraine[1]? Keep in mind Putin rolled his tanks into Crimea the day after the new pro-US/NATO regime in Ukraine had thrown out the democratically elected (albeit pro-Russia) government, and rewritten the Ukrainian Constitution[2] to then make it possible to drop neutrality[3] so that they could begin the process of joining NATO. A rule to join NATO is that a nation must be in control of its borders and not in active conflict, so by annexing Crimea, Russia ensured the moves to join NATO would be halted with that action. Understanding cause and effect is not the same as excusing it. If I poke a bear with a stick, and the bear eats me, it's my fault. Just because the bear went a little overboard doesn't change the fact that it's a bear and I should know not to poke it with a stick. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-constitution-idUSBREA1K17420140221 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-constituti... [3] https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-30594763 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-30594763

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
Almost verbatim identical to your last emission of this "coup" talking point: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31001317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31001317 and the time before that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30887629 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30887629 Not to forget: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30653796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30653796 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30648054 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30648054
- yucky 5y ago
  Yes, interesting how the facts don't change. If you'd like to challenge the facts, do so. Pointing out that facts have been posted before in response to the same questions, doesn't change the facts. Unless you think we can't trust BBC and Reuters...?
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    And neither do the talking points change. Replying in good faith is pointless, they can and have been debunked multiple times already, it makes no odds to the effort to push this. As I said: > this kind of disinformation does not need to even be self-consistent or even that believable. But it does need to be relentlessly sent out.
    - yucky 5y ago
      We both know why you can't back up your claims with sources, and I can. And so does everybody reading this.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
        sources been provided to you before. It didn't change your talking point then, so it's a waste of time now.
federoccco 5y ago
Democratically elected guy killed a hundred of protesters with snipers, and fled the country for the fear of retribution by his own security forces. Yet you call it a coup. I don’t see how changes to Constitution which limit the power of President could be related to whether or not Ukraine could be neutral.
- yucky 5y ago
  We're discussing what the trigger was for the 2014 invasion. It's also worth discussing whether the response was justified, but it's a separate discussion as to what caused Russia to invade & annex Crimea in 2014. That was the reason. Pretending that Putin just woke up one day and decided to invade Ukraine isn't helpful to anybody since it makes it seem like you're being dishonest. Common sense can tell us Putin was itching for an excuse to annex Crimea, but then that leaves us with the very uncomfortable question of why the US pushed Ukraine into this situation knowing how Putin would respond. Ukraine is being used a pawn in a proxy war between the US and Russia. People need to call it what it is if they actually care to understand it.
  - federoccco 5y ago
    Let me tell you one thing — Yanukovich would go down, whether US interfered or not, there were enough of internal Ukrainian elites who wanted him to go. The whole US pushed Ukraine talk is delusional. Ukraine is not a pawn, it has it’s own interests which do not always align with the West. If 2014 invasion was somehow related to Euromaidan protests, this 2022 invasion has no relation to internal Ukrainian politics nor to it’s foreign policy — nothing has fundamentally changed. The only reason why Putin attacked now is because he felt he could get away with it — Ukraine was asking for weapons since October and got only light anti-tank weapons to fight insurgency war. Nobody in the West pushed Ukrainians to fight, what West really wants is business as usual. Yet now it becomes less and less possible due to Ukrainian information war. Repeating Russian propaganda narratives is not what makes you a sudden expert on Eastern European politics.
    - yucky 5y ago