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OP doesn't need or want the JVM or Java libraries, and he wants to stay in the world of Free software that C and Ruby provide. He analyzed his needs and wants.

OP doesn't need or want the JVM or Java libraries, and he wants to stay in the world of Free software that C and Ruby provide. He analyzed his needs and wants. This is a good example of what "right tool for the job" analysis looks like. Though honestly, if OP wasn't in "java land" (his phrase), I'm not sure why Clojure was even on his radar. I greatly respect people who reject the hype and just go with the language that fits their needs, even if it isn't hyped like C, Ruby or Python but provide plenty of what you'll need. https://boringtechnology.club/ https://boringtechnology.club/

pixelrevision 5y ago
> Though honestly, if OP wasn't in "java land" (his phrase), I'm not sure why Clojure was even on his radar Clojure is really appealing as a language and has enough of a following that it doesn’t seem like a risky bet. It also looks pretty self contained. It’s only when you need to push it that you find yourself with confusing JVM stack traces and all the nuances of that ecosystem. When you do you start to figure out the whole thing is not quite as elegant and simple as it first appeared.
- swlkr 5y ago
  This is exactly what I experienced too, the tidy clojure ecosystem can come undone pretty quickly
- joshlemer 5y ago
  I dunno, in my experience even something as simple as a tiny syntax error can already get you into pretty deep and inscrutable stack traces.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    Syntax errors like unbalanced brackets/parenthesis/curly braces? Those should definitely give you "pure-clojure" errors as the parsers can't even read the source at that point. Only time you should be getting JVM stack traces is runtime errors.
    - joshlemer 5y ago
      No not that level, one level up though. Like, your form for defining a protocol is wrong, or for deftype or that kind of thing.
swlkr 5y ago
Yes, this is pretty much it. It's funny the presentation specifically mentions clojure for the "new and shiny." Today it would be something else, like rust or zig or something. But yeah it's difficult for me to build my tools and ship finished web applications at the same time, it's compounded by learning a new language. This is something I've struggled with for a long time. I still struggle with this, the urge to create a new web framework when I would have shipped much faster if I had just used some boring old one for example.
zem 5y ago
clojure in and of itself is a very pleasant language, and was an exciting new lisp when it came out. i remember going through the same journey as the author, venturing into jvm land just because i wanted to use clojure, and eventually deciding i preferred the unix/c ecosystem.
maydup-nem 5y ago
> https://boringtechnology.club/ https://boringtechnology.club/ the pitfalls of old boring tech have known solutions, while the new tech may run you into trouble you don't know you can run into? well, gee, that was totally worth the 50 slides that i had to scroll through (and i don't know why the website was so slow) looks like a web-dev is coping with the realities of web-dev, nothing more

pixelrevision 5y ago

> Though honestly, if OP wasn't in "java land" (his phrase), I'm not sure why Clojure was even on his radar Clojure is really appealing as a language and has enough of a following that it doesn’t seem like a risky bet. It also looks pretty self contained. It’s only when you need to push it that you find yourself with confusing JVM stack traces and all the nuances of that ecosystem. When you do you start to figure out the whole thing is not quite as elegant and simple as it first appeared.

swlkr 5y ago
This is exactly what I experienced too, the tidy clojure ecosystem can come undone pretty quickly
joshlemer 5y ago
I dunno, in my experience even something as simple as a tiny syntax error can already get you into pretty deep and inscrutable stack traces.
- capableweb 5y ago
  Syntax errors like unbalanced brackets/parenthesis/curly braces? Those should definitely give you "pure-clojure" errors as the parsers can't even read the source at that point. Only time you should be getting JVM stack traces is runtime errors.
  - joshlemer 5y ago
    No not that level, one level up though. Like, your form for defining a protocol is wrong, or for deftype or that kind of thing.

swlkr 5y ago

Yes, this is pretty much it. It's funny the presentation specifically mentions clojure for the "new and shiny." Today it would be something else, like rust or zig or something. But yeah it's difficult for me to build my tools and ship finished web applications at the same time, it's compounded by learning a new language. This is something I've struggled with for a long time. I still struggle with this, the urge to create a new web framework when I would have shipped much faster if I had just used some boring old one for example.

zem 5y ago

clojure in and of itself is a very pleasant language, and was an exciting new lisp when it came out. i remember going through the same journey as the author, venturing into jvm land just because i wanted to use clojure, and eventually deciding i preferred the unix/c ecosystem.

maydup-nem 5y ago

> https://boringtechnology.club/ https://boringtechnology.club/ the pitfalls of old boring tech have known solutions, while the new tech may run you into trouble you don't know you can run into? well, gee, that was totally worth the 50 slides that i had to scroll through (and i don't know why the website was so slow) looks like a web-dev is coping with the realities of web-dev, nothing more