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Do you not realize it was possible to join the armed forces without being a member of the Nazi party? Only the SS required Nazi party membership.

hef19898 5y ago
In fact Wehrmacht members were barred from NSDAP membership. I remember one case of a u boat commander that joined the navy to avoid NSDAP membership. He was later sentenced to death for defatism, despite intervention from senior Navy leadership. After that it took decades for him to be rehabilitated post WW2. Calling all Germans, 33(39) - 45 Nazis is strong. The truth is as well, so, that the Wehrmacht supported, enabled and perpetrated war crimes and genocide. As an organization, not every individual soldier did so. EDIT: A lot of the, especially young, officer corps was heavily Nazi influenced. Up to a third joined the NSDAP. In that case it is a clear sign of being a Nazi. As contrasted by practically forced NSDAP membership, e.g. teachers. That's one of the reasons de-Nazification was such a mess, but far from the only one.
- sidewndr46 5y ago
  I also have heard stories of young men from that era convicted of relatively minor crimes, such as property theft. They would be given the option between a jail sentence or military service. Unsurprisingly, many chose military service.
giraffe_lady 5y ago
If two men are fighting side by side, carrying out the same acts, and one has a card in his pocket that says nazi and the other doesn't. I'm meant to understand that we're talking about one nazi, not two? Sorry I do not accept this contortion.
- engineer_22 5y ago
  Shades of grey, lady.
- snapcaster 5y ago
  Why not? I could join the US military and fight alongside a communist, muslim, christian, nazi, etc. that wouldn't mean I was any of those things.
  - giraffe_lady 5y ago
    No but it does make you a soldier. That's the entire point here. We don't care what they thought of themselves, we care what they did.
    - snapcaster 5y ago
      >No but it does make you a soldier So you're abandoning the claim in your comment I responded to and agreeing with me?
      - giraffe_lady 5y ago
        I'm saying that what they did was nazi shit, in alignment with nazi values, towards nazi goals, so I feel good about calling them nazis. Regardless of whether they would have called themselves nazis. Why do you care so much about party membership? Why the project of establishing a high barrier and technical definition for what a nazi is?
        sidewndr46 5y ago
        My question to that would be: is a pacifist in the trenches of Vietnam on the side of the Americans equally culpable as the infantry soldier with a rifle? Both carryout essential tasks, both are likely conscripts. The only different is 1 has a rifle and didn't object to compulsory service. The other one made an objection but still performs an essential service.
        giraffe_lady 5y ago
        I'm not trying to establish a generalizable moral calculus of culpability though. Just refuting the idea that soldiers fighting for nazi germany were somehow not nazis if they weren't registered party members.
Archelaos 5y ago
As an introduction to anybody who wants to learn more about the subject, I can recommend a video where Sönke Neitzel talks about the motivation of German soldiers during WWII: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phhmXyrRQb8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phhmXyrRQb8 Neitzel is professor for military history at Potsdam University and arguably the world's foremost historian on the subject of the history of mentalities of the Wehrmacht.

hef19898 5y ago

In fact Wehrmacht members were barred from NSDAP membership. I remember one case of a u boat commander that joined the navy to avoid NSDAP membership. He was later sentenced to death for defatism, despite intervention from senior Navy leadership. After that it took decades for him to be rehabilitated post WW2. Calling all Germans, 33(39) - 45 Nazis is strong. The truth is as well, so, that the Wehrmacht supported, enabled and perpetrated war crimes and genocide. As an organization, not every individual soldier did so. EDIT: A lot of the, especially young, officer corps was heavily Nazi influenced. Up to a third joined the NSDAP. In that case it is a clear sign of being a Nazi. As contrasted by practically forced NSDAP membership, e.g. teachers. That's one of the reasons de-Nazification was such a mess, but far from the only one.

sidewndr46 5y ago
I also have heard stories of young men from that era convicted of relatively minor crimes, such as property theft. They would be given the option between a jail sentence or military service. Unsurprisingly, many chose military service.

giraffe_lady 5y ago

If two men are fighting side by side, carrying out the same acts, and one has a card in his pocket that says nazi and the other doesn't. I'm meant to understand that we're talking about one nazi, not two? Sorry I do not accept this contortion.

engineer_22 5y ago
Shades of grey, lady.
snapcaster 5y ago
Why not? I could join the US military and fight alongside a communist, muslim, christian, nazi, etc. that wouldn't mean I was any of those things.
- giraffe_lady 5y ago
  No but it does make you a soldier. That's the entire point here. We don't care what they thought of themselves, we care what they did.
  - snapcaster 5y ago
    >No but it does make you a soldier So you're abandoning the claim in your comment I responded to and agreeing with me?
    - giraffe_lady 5y ago
      I'm saying that what they did was nazi shit, in alignment with nazi values, towards nazi goals, so I feel good about calling them nazis. Regardless of whether they would have called themselves nazis. Why do you care so much about party membership? Why the project of establishing a high barrier and technical definition for what a nazi is?
      - sidewndr46 5y ago
        My question to that would be: is a pacifist in the trenches of Vietnam on the side of the Americans equally culpable as the infantry soldier with a rifle? Both carryout essential tasks, both are likely conscripts. The only different is 1 has a rifle and didn't object to compulsory service. The other one made an objection but still performs an essential service.
        giraffe_lady 5y ago
        I'm not trying to establish a generalizable moral calculus of culpability though. Just refuting the idea that soldiers fighting for nazi germany were somehow not nazis if they weren't registered party members.

Archelaos 5y ago

As an introduction to anybody who wants to learn more about the subject, I can recommend a video where Sönke Neitzel talks about the motivation of German soldiers during WWII: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phhmXyrRQb8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phhmXyrRQb8 Neitzel is professor for military history at Potsdam University and arguably the world's foremost historian on the subject of the history of mentalities of the Wehrmacht.