6 ms·

I can’t answer your specific question, but I would really encourage you to think more about the AWS offer. Having spent a decade at Amazon, across several orga

I can’t answer your specific question, but I would really encourage you to think more about the AWS offer. Having spent a decade at Amazon, across several organizations, I don’t recommend it as a place to work. There was a NYTimes article about the company in 2015. Everything there still reflects the day to day culture of the company. For me Amazon took an unprecedented toll on my mental and physical health. I did earn enough money, but I immensely regret all the time I didn’t spend with my family over the years, all the friendships that faded, and the constant reminder from leaders how I could always do better - nothing was ever good enough. Amazons leadership fundamentally does not see their employees as human beings. As I grew the ranks over the years, I was directly coached on removing myself from certain day to day interactions, because it would simplify decision making if I didn’t have an interest in my own people, that simply forming just work bonds was a conflict of interest in terms of doing what’s “right” for the company. Any non compete you’re concerned about isn’t even the tip of the iceberg. Good luck to you.

locusofself 5y ago
Thank you for this. I'm currently (today) trying to negotiate an offer with AWS and while the brand/tech is making it really tempting, Work/life balance is really important to me right now as a father of a 3 year old (the only child I am planning to have).
- geoduck14 5y ago
  From one dad to another - cherish this time with your child. It goes SO fast.
  - brazzledazzle 5y ago
    Yes, please believe us. It sounds so cliche but it goes too fast.
  - mooreds 5y ago
    There is a limited period of time where you (the parents) will be the sun rising and setting for your child. (A few years.) That was special for me; there's no love like the love of a young child. After that, your kids will start to turn towards friends, teachers, and other relatives. As they should--it's an important part of becoming a full fledged human. But it's still a bit bittersweet to see the end of being able to do no wrong in your kiddo's eyes.
- danpalmer 5y ago
  > The brand/tech is making it really tempting Really? I’ve always felt that the Amazon brand is relatively low quality. I’ve also heard that tech-wise it’s less interesting than you might assume from the outside, and they just burn out engineers on problems rather than solving them well. I’m relatively uninformed so don’t make a decision based on this, but maybe something to consider.
  - locusofself 5y ago
    What I really mean to say is that most startups are using AWS. While you don't have to work at AWS to get AWS skills obviously, having worked there would potentially signal that you really know AWS well and can bring that knowledge into the cooler/smaller company. The interview process is fairly difficult, not google/meta level, but not a walk in the park.
    - badpun 5y ago
      I don’t think that’s the case. When working on AWS, you’ll be assigned to a team doing some AWS product and so you’ll probably get to know it really well, but you’ll be more or less oblivious about the other 50+ products. Whereas, as a mere user of AWS, you’ll get more rounded knowledge.
  - bradknowles 5y ago
    We've had guys on our team recently get some patents issued in their name, because what we are working on is a hard problem at a massive scale, and we are solving things that have never been solved before. I will agree that Amazon has some weird stuff around their internal development environment, which I think is well documented elsewhere. OTOH, when you're building services to handle billions of customers all around the world, there are some things you have to do a little differently.
AlchemistCamp 5y ago
That fifth paragraph is dark.
- edfletcher_t137 5y ago
  And it's the crux of the whole problem.
wnolens 5y ago
> Amazons leadership fundamentally does not see their employees as human beings I'm there right now and this is very true. It isn't even a hidden truth about working there. In fact, the company has a set of principles [0] that are necessary to adopt and use to justify all decisions you make or feedback you give to others. And missing from this set of principles? Any mention of the humanity of those you are leading. The only empathy encouraged is for the customer. It's a cold cold place to work. [0] https://leaders.com/articles/leadership/amazon-leadership-principles/ https://leaders.com/articles/leadership/amazon-leadership-pr...
- kixiQu 5y ago
  This isn't a meaningful criticism because -- well, watch what people do, not what they say. But it isn't even coherent because you're working with an out of date list: https://amazon.jobs/en/internal/principles https://amazon.jobs/en/internal/principles
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    Paywall. Try again.
    - mshaler 5y ago
      https://www.aboutamazon.com/about-us/leadership-principles https://www.aboutamazon.com/about-us/leadership-principles
  - kixiQu 5y ago
    https://www.geekwire.com/2021/amazon-adds-two-new-leadership-principles-just-days-jeff-bezos-steps-ceo/ https://www.geekwire.com/2021/amazon-adds-two-new-leadership... https://aws.amazon.com/executive-insights/content/leading-and-innovating-with-leadership-principles/ https://aws.amazon.com/executive-insights/content/leading-an... https://www.carrus.io/blog/amazon-newprinciples https://www.carrus.io/blog/amazon-newprinciples Alternate links
x0x0 5y ago
Not to mention the backweighted RSU vesting schedules. AWS comp is designed around recovering comp back from employees that put in, say, 2 years and decide AWS isn't the place for them. Not how I run a business, but to each his or her own.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
ideamotor 5y ago
Sounds like Severence
edfletcher_t137 5y ago
This is incredibly enlightening, thank you for this.
systemvoltage 5y ago
I've hired several AWS engineers. Everyone of them, despite of having left AWS had nothing but good things to say. You'd think that since they left AWS, they'd have a boat load of things to unload. The only gripe I heard was occassional work/life balance during launch or critical times. Otherwise, AWS/Amazon is akin to working at Intel, GE, IBM, Oracle, etc. Bog standard corporate job. You are a cog in the machine, get used to it. In return you get a stable career, can raise a family and do better than 99.99% of the people on this planet. NYT's story was very controversial. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/08/17/432555175/jeff-bezos-responds-to-new-york-times-report-on-amazons-workplace https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/08/17/432555175... https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/10/amazon-responds-new-york-times/411232/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/10/amazon-... https://www.vox.com/2015/8/17/9166023/new-york-times-amazon https://www.vox.com/2015/8/17/9166023/new-york-times-amazon NYT has a tremendous agenda and often goes unchecked.
- kyleplum 5y ago
  To be fair, it's generally discouraged to speak ill about a previous workplace when interviewing/working at a new job as it may reflect more poorly on you as an individual than the company you are disparaging.
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    Yes, but the same people had no problem talking about their previous employer prior to AWS. One guy was ex-Siemens employee from their Swiss office in Zurich.
    - onionisafruit 5y ago
      That explains why Amazon seemed great to them.
- cosmodisk 5y ago
  Were you speaking to them about AWS before hiring or once they were hired? I could tell lots of justified shit about my previous employers but none during an interview.
nickjj 5y ago
> I did earn enough money, but I immensely regret all the time I didn’t spend with my family over the years How many hours a week did you average at work? A lot of tech jobs will expect working 9-6. If it was over 40-45, did the money scale linearly to the hours you put in? If it was 40-45 then it's equal to most other jobs except with higher compensation?
- ozzythecat 5y ago
  Money does not scale linearly. It’s more of a function of the amazon stock growth. I was able to build wealth because I did the less orthodox path and held on to every share that ever vested for me starting from 2012. But even here, the company is not generous at all. Your stock grants vest 1-2 years out. If the stock climbs during that time, then in next year, you get no additional compensation. My initial years at amazon, I received little to no compensation increase, even with multiple promotions, because the stock had climbed significantly in value. So if they don’t give you more shares when the stock appreciates, then what happens if it doesn’t grow or declines? They try to compensate you by giving you more shares that vest over a 2 year time frame. So if the stock does good, you get screwed. If the stock performs poorly, you get screwed too.
  - nickjj 5y ago
    > So if the stock does good, you get screwed. If the stock performs poorly, you get screwed too. Did something else bad happen at the company? I guess our definitions of screwed are slightly different. It sounds like they are giving you extra compensation in case your options happen to do poorly one year. They could have chosen to say "we can't control the market, you received 10 shares and whether they go up or down is out of our control". This way you win some and lose some based on the market. Even with having to wait for 2 years that's not too bad (it's basically free money). Holding for a year also means your stock compensation is taxed at long term capital gains instead of income. If I were working at a stable and successful public company I'd prefer stock options if you were comparing $1 in cash vs $1 in options. After taxes, etc. your options are going to be likely 20-25% more valuable due to less taxes (no risk) and it has the chance to potentially to go higher (risk involved). The only time it's worse is if the stock tanks hard (the 20-25% tax difference) but that's not going to be a common event in a company like Amazon. Combine that with you entering in 2012 when they were trading for 215 a share, that's a 15x return vs today. I guess I'm just having trouble seeing how that outcome isn't good. If you worked let's say 45 hours a week, combined with 10 years of a competitive tech salary + having options in a company that has had massive growth that's a combo where you end up being pretty much set for life (multiple millions of post-tax money available). Were you working something like 80 hours a week for 10 years straight? That would make the decision much harder but at the same time you're trading 10 years to never have to worry about money again so even then it's not a hard no, 80 probably is a hard no because but 60 hours brings it closer to "maybe, it depends".
shahbaby 5y ago
It's not just leadership, it trickles down to every aspect of work. From the poor tooling to the most toxic "team" of co-workers I've ever been on. I don't regret joining but every month I deeply regret staying. Props to Amazon for providing me with the motivation to find something better.
gastroturf 5y ago
I’m a recently joined SDM in AWS. I do not mean to negate your years of experience. I expect to find exactly your experience as my time progresses and I see more teams. I find that a lot of Amazon’s management systems appear to be built as safeguards against the pitfalls less experienced leaders might not know how to handle. Unfortunately it is optimized for the “least common denominator” of human collaboration, which is basically coercing individuals to behave like machines. I agree with your characterization of the problem. I would go so far as to say that I disagree with the system in a philosophical manner. It is opposite of good leadership, in motivating humans to grow, innovate, and create success, in my understanding. Yet I cannot ignore Amazon’s market success; it may have succeeded in spite of these flaws. I do not know how long I will stay. I anticipate a deep enough philosophical conflict to motivate my eventual exit. Until then, my team will benefit from stronger cohesion, shared knowledge, clearer prioritization, growth, work life balance, and ultimately happiness. Some of them have taken their first vacations in the last few years, in the few months of my tenure so far, because of the changes we’ve embraced. I will create a healthy environment of leadership for my team, and we will succeed. We will show Amazon what is required, as long as I can. If past experience is any indication, I will carry my team’s allegiance because I look out for their interests, individually and collectively. And when we deliver strategic advancements, we will gain autonomy. If not, I know that my talents can be impactful elsewhere. I hope that I can quell the tide of dynamics of which you warn.
- bradknowles 5y ago
  I joined AWS in September. I've heard about problems that some other teams have had, but in the six months I've been on my current team, I haven't seen any such issues. I keep waiting for that shoe to drop, and so far it hasn't. We recently had an off-site meeting for everyone in the organization under our L10, and I now feel so much better about where we are going and how we are going to get there. I didn't realize how much pent up angst I had until the end of the first day of the off-site, and I felt like a huge weight had been taken off my shoulders, and that I had finally seen the light. That said, my history with employers is that everything can be perfect and great up to a certain point, and then there is a sudden change. In the past, that change has usually been because of a change in leadership somewhere, possibly just down at the level of the new manager hired right above me. After that change, what was one of the best places I've ever worked suddenly becomes one of the worst. I've seen this happen time after time at virtually every single employer I've had since 1989. I can count on one hand the number of times where this didn't happen. So, I will continue to keep an eye out for that dropping shoe. But I will also continue to enjoy working on this team, with these people, and this leadership. And with any luck, we will be able to successfully change the world for the better.

locusofself 5y ago

Thank you for this. I'm currently (today) trying to negotiate an offer with AWS and while the brand/tech is making it really tempting, Work/life balance is really important to me right now as a father of a 3 year old (the only child I am planning to have).

geoduck14 5y ago
From one dad to another - cherish this time with your child. It goes SO fast.
- brazzledazzle 5y ago
  Yes, please believe us. It sounds so cliche but it goes too fast.
- mooreds 5y ago
  There is a limited period of time where you (the parents) will be the sun rising and setting for your child. (A few years.) That was special for me; there's no love like the love of a young child. After that, your kids will start to turn towards friends, teachers, and other relatives. As they should--it's an important part of becoming a full fledged human. But it's still a bit bittersweet to see the end of being able to do no wrong in your kiddo's eyes.
danpalmer 5y ago
> The brand/tech is making it really tempting Really? I’ve always felt that the Amazon brand is relatively low quality. I’ve also heard that tech-wise it’s less interesting than you might assume from the outside, and they just burn out engineers on problems rather than solving them well. I’m relatively uninformed so don’t make a decision based on this, but maybe something to consider.
- locusofself 5y ago
  What I really mean to say is that most startups are using AWS. While you don't have to work at AWS to get AWS skills obviously, having worked there would potentially signal that you really know AWS well and can bring that knowledge into the cooler/smaller company. The interview process is fairly difficult, not google/meta level, but not a walk in the park.
  - badpun 5y ago
    I don’t think that’s the case. When working on AWS, you’ll be assigned to a team doing some AWS product and so you’ll probably get to know it really well, but you’ll be more or less oblivious about the other 50+ products. Whereas, as a mere user of AWS, you’ll get more rounded knowledge.
- bradknowles 5y ago
  We've had guys on our team recently get some patents issued in their name, because what we are working on is a hard problem at a massive scale, and we are solving things that have never been solved before. I will agree that Amazon has some weird stuff around their internal development environment, which I think is well documented elsewhere. OTOH, when you're building services to handle billions of customers all around the world, there are some things you have to do a little differently.

AlchemistCamp 5y ago

That fifth paragraph is dark.

edfletcher_t137 5y ago
And it's the crux of the whole problem.

wnolens 5y ago

> Amazons leadership fundamentally does not see their employees as human beings I'm there right now and this is very true. It isn't even a hidden truth about working there. In fact, the company has a set of principles [0] that are necessary to adopt and use to justify all decisions you make or feedback you give to others. And missing from this set of principles? Any mention of the humanity of those you are leading. The only empathy encouraged is for the customer. It's a cold cold place to work. [0] https://leaders.com/articles/leadership/amazon-leadership-principles/ https://leaders.com/articles/leadership/amazon-leadership-pr...

kixiQu 5y ago
This isn't a meaningful criticism because -- well, watch what people do, not what they say. But it isn't even coherent because you're working with an out of date list: https://amazon.jobs/en/internal/principles https://amazon.jobs/en/internal/principles
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Paywall. Try again.
  - mshaler 5y ago
    https://www.aboutamazon.com/about-us/leadership-principles https://www.aboutamazon.com/about-us/leadership-principles
- kixiQu 5y ago
  https://www.geekwire.com/2021/amazon-adds-two-new-leadership-principles-just-days-jeff-bezos-steps-ceo/ https://www.geekwire.com/2021/amazon-adds-two-new-leadership... https://aws.amazon.com/executive-insights/content/leading-and-innovating-with-leadership-principles/ https://aws.amazon.com/executive-insights/content/leading-an... https://www.carrus.io/blog/amazon-newprinciples https://www.carrus.io/blog/amazon-newprinciples Alternate links

x0x0 5y ago

Not to mention the backweighted RSU vesting schedules. AWS comp is designed around recovering comp back from employees that put in, say, 2 years and decide AWS isn't the place for them. Not how I run a business, but to each his or her own.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

ideamotor 5y ago

Sounds like Severence

edfletcher_t137 5y ago

This is incredibly enlightening, thank you for this.

systemvoltage 5y ago

I've hired several AWS engineers. Everyone of them, despite of having left AWS had nothing but good things to say. You'd think that since they left AWS, they'd have a boat load of things to unload. The only gripe I heard was occassional work/life balance during launch or critical times. Otherwise, AWS/Amazon is akin to working at Intel, GE, IBM, Oracle, etc. Bog standard corporate job. You are a cog in the machine, get used to it. In return you get a stable career, can raise a family and do better than 99.99% of the people on this planet. NYT's story was very controversial. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/08/17/432555175/jeff-bezos-responds-to-new-york-times-report-on-amazons-workplace https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/08/17/432555175... https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/10/amazon-responds-new-york-times/411232/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/10/amazon-... https://www.vox.com/2015/8/17/9166023/new-york-times-amazon https://www.vox.com/2015/8/17/9166023/new-york-times-amazon NYT has a tremendous agenda and often goes unchecked.

kyleplum 5y ago
To be fair, it's generally discouraged to speak ill about a previous workplace when interviewing/working at a new job as it may reflect more poorly on you as an individual than the company you are disparaging.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  Yes, but the same people had no problem talking about their previous employer prior to AWS. One guy was ex-Siemens employee from their Swiss office in Zurich.
  - onionisafruit 5y ago
    That explains why Amazon seemed great to them.
cosmodisk 5y ago
Were you speaking to them about AWS before hiring or once they were hired? I could tell lots of justified shit about my previous employers but none during an interview.

nickjj 5y ago

> I did earn enough money, but I immensely regret all the time I didn’t spend with my family over the years How many hours a week did you average at work? A lot of tech jobs will expect working 9-6. If it was over 40-45, did the money scale linearly to the hours you put in? If it was 40-45 then it's equal to most other jobs except with higher compensation?

ozzythecat 5y ago
Money does not scale linearly. It’s more of a function of the amazon stock growth. I was able to build wealth because I did the less orthodox path and held on to every share that ever vested for me starting from 2012. But even here, the company is not generous at all. Your stock grants vest 1-2 years out. If the stock climbs during that time, then in next year, you get no additional compensation. My initial years at amazon, I received little to no compensation increase, even with multiple promotions, because the stock had climbed significantly in value. So if they don’t give you more shares when the stock appreciates, then what happens if it doesn’t grow or declines? They try to compensate you by giving you more shares that vest over a 2 year time frame. So if the stock does good, you get screwed. If the stock performs poorly, you get screwed too.
- nickjj 5y ago
  > So if the stock does good, you get screwed. If the stock performs poorly, you get screwed too. Did something else bad happen at the company? I guess our definitions of screwed are slightly different. It sounds like they are giving you extra compensation in case your options happen to do poorly one year. They could have chosen to say "we can't control the market, you received 10 shares and whether they go up or down is out of our control". This way you win some and lose some based on the market. Even with having to wait for 2 years that's not too bad (it's basically free money). Holding for a year also means your stock compensation is taxed at long term capital gains instead of income. If I were working at a stable and successful public company I'd prefer stock options if you were comparing $1 in cash vs $1 in options. After taxes, etc. your options are going to be likely 20-25% more valuable due to less taxes (no risk) and it has the chance to potentially to go higher (risk involved). The only time it's worse is if the stock tanks hard (the 20-25% tax difference) but that's not going to be a common event in a company like Amazon. Combine that with you entering in 2012 when they were trading for 215 a share, that's a 15x return vs today. I guess I'm just having trouble seeing how that outcome isn't good. If you worked let's say 45 hours a week, combined with 10 years of a competitive tech salary + having options in a company that has had massive growth that's a combo where you end up being pretty much set for life (multiple millions of post-tax money available). Were you working something like 80 hours a week for 10 years straight? That would make the decision much harder but at the same time you're trading 10 years to never have to worry about money again so even then it's not a hard no, 80 probably is a hard no because but 60 hours brings it closer to "maybe, it depends".

shahbaby 5y ago

It's not just leadership, it trickles down to every aspect of work. From the poor tooling to the most toxic "team" of co-workers I've ever been on. I don't regret joining but every month I deeply regret staying. Props to Amazon for providing me with the motivation to find something better.

gastroturf 5y ago

I’m a recently joined SDM in AWS. I do not mean to negate your years of experience. I expect to find exactly your experience as my time progresses and I see more teams. I find that a lot of Amazon’s management systems appear to be built as safeguards against the pitfalls less experienced leaders might not know how to handle. Unfortunately it is optimized for the “least common denominator” of human collaboration, which is basically coercing individuals to behave like machines. I agree with your characterization of the problem. I would go so far as to say that I disagree with the system in a philosophical manner. It is opposite of good leadership, in motivating humans to grow, innovate, and create success, in my understanding. Yet I cannot ignore Amazon’s market success; it may have succeeded in spite of these flaws. I do not know how long I will stay. I anticipate a deep enough philosophical conflict to motivate my eventual exit. Until then, my team will benefit from stronger cohesion, shared knowledge, clearer prioritization, growth, work life balance, and ultimately happiness. Some of them have taken their first vacations in the last few years, in the few months of my tenure so far, because of the changes we’ve embraced. I will create a healthy environment of leadership for my team, and we will succeed. We will show Amazon what is required, as long as I can. If past experience is any indication, I will carry my team’s allegiance because I look out for their interests, individually and collectively. And when we deliver strategic advancements, we will gain autonomy. If not, I know that my talents can be impactful elsewhere. I hope that I can quell the tide of dynamics of which you warn.

bradknowles 5y ago
I joined AWS in September. I've heard about problems that some other teams have had, but in the six months I've been on my current team, I haven't seen any such issues. I keep waiting for that shoe to drop, and so far it hasn't. We recently had an off-site meeting for everyone in the organization under our L10, and I now feel so much better about where we are going and how we are going to get there. I didn't realize how much pent up angst I had until the end of the first day of the off-site, and I felt like a huge weight had been taken off my shoulders, and that I had finally seen the light. That said, my history with employers is that everything can be perfect and great up to a certain point, and then there is a sudden change. In the past, that change has usually been because of a change in leadership somewhere, possibly just down at the level of the new manager hired right above me. After that change, what was one of the best places I've ever worked suddenly becomes one of the worst. I've seen this happen time after time at virtually every single employer I've had since 1989. I can count on one hand the number of times where this didn't happen. So, I will continue to keep an eye out for that dropping shoe. But I will also continue to enjoy working on this team, with these people, and this leadership. And with any luck, we will be able to successfully change the world for the better.