4 ms·

Internal bleeding from severe shoulder injury caused death of Jesus Christ

JoeAltmaier 5y ago
Political chicanery and despotism had their part I suspect. SO sure the proximal cause might be narrowed down, but it hardly seems critical to know exactly how somebody was tortured to death.
- theandrewbailey 5y ago
  > Political chicanery and despotism had their part I suspect. If you read the textbook that has 4 different accounts of what happened, politics is heavily featured in each one.
Mikeb85 5y ago
Of all the things care to know about Jesus, this isn't it. Pretty sure the whole son-of-god aspect, the historicity of his life, the origin of his cult, many other things are more interesting than the potential exact cause of death of someone crucified by the Romans...
- kgwxd 5y ago
  I'm still gonna need some reasonable indication it's not just a character in a fictional story before I'm willing to care about anything else.
  - Mikeb85 5y ago
    Yes that's one of my points (the historicity of his life).
  - wanderr 5y ago
    Yes. Otherwise this might as well be an article speculating on what caused the extinction of the unicorn.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    Based on what we know of the history of the very early church, it wouldn't have been easy for them to coordinate around making changes to the story - a centralized authority didn't exist until hundreds of years later. The total fabrication theory doesn't have a clear starting point for when everyone got together and decided to make up a character. That in my mind lends some credence to the idea that there was an individual that they could gather around. If you look at how cults or religions got started in recent history, we never see a bunch of people coordinate in that kind of a way, where a lot of people disparately decide to invent a nonexistent leader and go around telling everyone that they recently died. Could the central authority have later fabricated a history of the early church that made it look like there was a long period where nobody could have coordinated big changes? Maybe, but that is a standard that no set of historical documents could pass. (It's like suggesting that the Byzantines fabricated every single classical document including the tree-rings of ancient historians arguing with each other.)
    - slowmovintarget 5y ago
      There are also letters between Roman governors complaining about Jesus and his followers. Regardless of what other notions one discounts, the fact that Jesus was an actual person alive at the time should not be one of them.
whatshisface 5y ago
>Fr Pullicino, [...] based his conclusions on earlier finding of forensic and medical experts who investigated the Shroud of Turin. Well, the Shroud of Turin is fake, so the conclusion is probably wrong.
- ramesh31 5y ago
  >Well, it's a fake, so the conclusion is probably wrong. Shhh... we all know radiocarbon dating is pseudoscience.
- polishdude20 5y ago
  Further down they do mention this: More recent studies – conducted in 2012 and 2015 – argue instead that the science proves that the linen sheet dates precisely from the time of Jesus. That's all I'm sayin'
  - bb88 5y ago
    So most art forgeries use canvases from the period of the original. Also: "The French theologian Juan Calvino pointed out in the 16th century, in the midst of a boom in the traffic of relics where the pieces of the so-called “vera cruz” distributed by churches and monasteries abounded, that “if we wanted to collect everything that has been found (from the cross), there would be enough to carry a great ship. ” https://digismak.com/what-happened-to-the-cross-on-which-jesus-died-and-was-it-really-found/ https://digismak.com/what-happened-to-the-cross-on-which-jes...
rich_sasha 5y ago
As a Catholic, I’d love to read more about the science of Christianity. Alas, I often find people who research this area start with a conclusion and cherry pick arguments to fit. Some perhaps don’t; but they are a minority and thus require digging through a lot of pseudoscientific material.
- bb88 5y ago
  I find it to be the axioms people start with are wrong typically. At some point your arguments must be grounded in an objective reality -- otherwise any conclusion holds no value. I will say I think it's awesome the Catholic church has their own astronomer. So at least their observations are grounded in a shared reality.
- supernt 5y ago
  Jesus and the Shroud of Turin Jesus Documentary Channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHfvKUG-Eew https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHfvKUG-Eew A Doctor at Calvary: The Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ As Described by a Surgeon https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Calvary-Passion-Described-Surgeon-ebook/dp/B07B418JRG https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Calvary-Passion-Described-Surg... The Agony of Jesus in the Garden https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0eEegbDPGw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0eEegbDPGw
dqpb 5y ago
Q: Who was Jesus? A: He was the son of God! He could walk on water, heal any physical ailment with the mere touch of a hand, and freely clone matter in total defiance of the physical laws of conservation. Q: Amazing! What happened to him? A: A shoulder injury led to large tension hemothorax which resulted in fatal circulatory collapse. Q: Oh, ok...
- emerged 5y ago
  Honestly yes that’s the point. The immortal becoming mortal to suffer for the sins of others. Not saying whether that’s all true or not just that … yes that’s the whole point.
  - dqpb 5y ago
    The whole point / explaining away the facts / gaslighting / trolling. I guess we’ll just never know the motivation of the storytellers.
    - fortytwo79 5y ago
      This kind of condescension towards religion is so close-minded, and it's incredibly tiring. I think you'd be surprised just how much the faithful appreciate and embrace science, and how much philosophical thinking about reality and existence we actually do. Adult religiousness is not the same as the cartoon version that children are introduced to, that so many atheists use to attack. The lazy, unintellectual thing to do is to base all your understanding of reality only on what science can describe, and to never explore beyond what can be proven as a "fact." Your statement about explaining away facts paints the faithful as simple-minded rubes, which is a cheap shot and is absent any understanding of how the religious actually view the world.
      - dqpb 5y ago
        > This kind of condescension towards religion is so close-minded, and it's incredibly tiring. I live in the US, God Bless America, where religion is shoved in your face over and over again from childhood to adulthood (it’s incredibly tiring). I’m intimately aware of the philosophies and mental capabilities of “the faithful”. Religion has earned every ounce of condescension that it receives. > The lazy, unintellectual thing to do is to base all your understanding of reality only on what science can describe, and to never explore beyond what can be proven as a "fact." Science is exploration. Religion is not.

Political chicanery and despotism had their part I suspect. SO sure the proximal cause might be narrowed down, but it hardly seems critical to know exactly how somebody was tortured to death.

theandrewbailey 5y ago
> Political chicanery and despotism had their part I suspect. If you read the textbook that has 4 different accounts of what happened, politics is heavily featured in each one.

Mikeb85 5y ago

Of all the things care to know about Jesus, this isn't it. Pretty sure the whole son-of-god aspect, the historicity of his life, the origin of his cult, many other things are more interesting than the potential exact cause of death of someone crucified by the Romans...

kgwxd 5y ago
I'm still gonna need some reasonable indication it's not just a character in a fictional story before I'm willing to care about anything else.
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  Yes that's one of my points (the historicity of his life).
- wanderr 5y ago
  Yes. Otherwise this might as well be an article speculating on what caused the extinction of the unicorn.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  Based on what we know of the history of the very early church, it wouldn't have been easy for them to coordinate around making changes to the story - a centralized authority didn't exist until hundreds of years later. The total fabrication theory doesn't have a clear starting point for when everyone got together and decided to make up a character. That in my mind lends some credence to the idea that there was an individual that they could gather around. If you look at how cults or religions got started in recent history, we never see a bunch of people coordinate in that kind of a way, where a lot of people disparately decide to invent a nonexistent leader and go around telling everyone that they recently died. Could the central authority have later fabricated a history of the early church that made it look like there was a long period where nobody could have coordinated big changes? Maybe, but that is a standard that no set of historical documents could pass. (It's like suggesting that the Byzantines fabricated every single classical document including the tree-rings of ancient historians arguing with each other.)
  - slowmovintarget 5y ago
    There are also letters between Roman governors complaining about Jesus and his followers. Regardless of what other notions one discounts, the fact that Jesus was an actual person alive at the time should not be one of them.

whatshisface 5y ago

>Fr Pullicino, [...] based his conclusions on earlier finding of forensic and medical experts who investigated the Shroud of Turin. Well, the Shroud of Turin is fake, so the conclusion is probably wrong.

ramesh31 5y ago
>Well, it's a fake, so the conclusion is probably wrong. Shhh... we all know radiocarbon dating is pseudoscience.
polishdude20 5y ago
Further down they do mention this: More recent studies – conducted in 2012 and 2015 – argue instead that the science proves that the linen sheet dates precisely from the time of Jesus. That's all I'm sayin'
- bb88 5y ago
  So most art forgeries use canvases from the period of the original. Also: "The French theologian Juan Calvino pointed out in the 16th century, in the midst of a boom in the traffic of relics where the pieces of the so-called “vera cruz” distributed by churches and monasteries abounded, that “if we wanted to collect everything that has been found (from the cross), there would be enough to carry a great ship. ” https://digismak.com/what-happened-to-the-cross-on-which-jesus-died-and-was-it-really-found/ https://digismak.com/what-happened-to-the-cross-on-which-jes...

rich_sasha 5y ago

As a Catholic, I’d love to read more about the science of Christianity. Alas, I often find people who research this area start with a conclusion and cherry pick arguments to fit. Some perhaps don’t; but they are a minority and thus require digging through a lot of pseudoscientific material.

bb88 5y ago
I find it to be the axioms people start with are wrong typically. At some point your arguments must be grounded in an objective reality -- otherwise any conclusion holds no value. I will say I think it's awesome the Catholic church has their own astronomer. So at least their observations are grounded in a shared reality.
supernt 5y ago
Jesus and the Shroud of Turin Jesus Documentary Channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHfvKUG-Eew https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHfvKUG-Eew A Doctor at Calvary: The Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ As Described by a Surgeon https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Calvary-Passion-Described-Surgeon-ebook/dp/B07B418JRG https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Calvary-Passion-Described-Surg... The Agony of Jesus in the Garden https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0eEegbDPGw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0eEegbDPGw

dqpb 5y ago

Q: Who was Jesus? A: He was the son of God! He could walk on water, heal any physical ailment with the mere touch of a hand, and freely clone matter in total defiance of the physical laws of conservation. Q: Amazing! What happened to him? A: A shoulder injury led to large tension hemothorax which resulted in fatal circulatory collapse. Q: Oh, ok...

emerged 5y ago
Honestly yes that’s the point. The immortal becoming mortal to suffer for the sins of others. Not saying whether that’s all true or not just that … yes that’s the whole point.
- dqpb 5y ago
  The whole point / explaining away the facts / gaslighting / trolling. I guess we’ll just never know the motivation of the storytellers.
  - fortytwo79 5y ago
    This kind of condescension towards religion is so close-minded, and it's incredibly tiring. I think you'd be surprised just how much the faithful appreciate and embrace science, and how much philosophical thinking about reality and existence we actually do. Adult religiousness is not the same as the cartoon version that children are introduced to, that so many atheists use to attack. The lazy, unintellectual thing to do is to base all your understanding of reality only on what science can describe, and to never explore beyond what can be proven as a "fact." Your statement about explaining away facts paints the faithful as simple-minded rubes, which is a cheap shot and is absent any understanding of how the religious actually view the world.
    - dqpb 5y ago
      > This kind of condescension towards religion is so close-minded, and it's incredibly tiring. I live in the US, God Bless America, where religion is shoved in your face over and over again from childhood to adulthood (it’s incredibly tiring). I’m intimately aware of the philosophies and mental capabilities of “the faithful”. Religion has earned every ounce of condescension that it receives. > The lazy, unintellectual thing to do is to base all your understanding of reality only on what science can describe, and to never explore beyond what can be proven as a "fact." Science is exploration. Religion is not.