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> A program is idempotent if when we run the program multiple times (on the same input), it will have the same effect as if we run it only once. Determinism/pu

by Twisol 5y ago

> A program is idempotent if when we run the program multiple times (on the same input), it will have the same effect as if we run it only once. Determinism/purity could be defined the same way; the difference hinges on your interpretation of "run the program multiple times on the same input". That is, if you run `f(x)` and then `f(x)` again (on the same input, see!), you ought to get the same result. Given the spotlight pure functions have received for the last N years, maybe this distinction is worth making explicitly? The "on the same input" part is, I think, what puts it uncomfortably close to determinism. Hmm... > How I like to think about idempotence is that we have some desired state (the input), and then we have an actual state and the purpose of the program is to bring the actual state to the desired state. This is a lovely way to look at it!

jimminy 5y ago
It's not really uncomfortably close to determinism, it is baseline deterministic which is necessary for the verification. The powerful part of idempotence is that it's deterministic + a verified assurance "as if we run it only once." Deterministic (but not idempotent): send_message(id=1, body) without verifying the state of id, could result in the message being received multiple times. Idempotent: send_message(id=1, body) would verify that the id token hadn't been consumed, before acting, thus only allowing the message to be sent one time.
- Twisol 5y ago
  In your second example, if you run `send_message(id=1, body)` once and then run `send_message(id=1, body)` again, it behaves differently the second time than the first time, despite receiving the same input. So `send_message` is idempotent, but its behavior is not determined by its inputs (i.e. it is not pure). If you imagine the hidden state that `send_message` reads and writes to be part of the input, then when you run it the second time, its inputs have changed. So it wouldn't be correct to say you're running it multiple times "on the same input". These details are not obvious from the given definition, and that's why I say it's uncomfortably close to purity. Idempotence is very much not about purity (though you can have both), and that's why I like the author's goal-oriented explanation better: it makes the role of state very explicit.
  - jimminy 5y ago
    Yeah, my example was bad. I was more trying to point out that determinism of the intrinsic action is a pre-condition to the idempotency, in order to make and verify the assurance required. You could easily split the deterministic action, and comparison/verification against existing state into two different Pure functions. Being able to perform the verification separately is valuable for addressing the "at most once", "at least once", and "exactly once" assurance described in another comment in this the thread. I was casually opening my scope up to the outer state, in the example, to express the "assurance" portion of the definition. But you're correct, it's an erroneous example that doesn't pass the more rigorous definition of Pure Determinism, when applied the local scope of the function.
lmkg 5y ago
Idempotence is usually used when talking about effectful code. Modeling the state as part of the input/output seems to run counter to that purpose, because that's how you create a pure model of an effectful program. It's useful to talk about idempotence when running the function zero times is different than running it once, which is hard to do in that framing. As you say, "on the same input" is difficult to reconcile if the state is part of the input. If we consider the state to be part of the input, then it's easier to say that when f(x) = y, then f(y) = y as well. In other words, f(f(x)) = f(x). Which, as it just so happens, is literally the mathematical definition of idempotence which the programming concept is based on. In any case, this still gets to the same overall conclusion: the point is to arrive at a specific destination, not to move towards it. That shift of perspective is helpful in framing problems towards an idempotent solution.
- Twisol 5y ago
  > Idempotence is usually used when talking about effectful code. Agreed! The idempotent operation acts on some state; how that state is modeled is an independent concern. > In other words, f(f(x)) = f(x). Which, as it just so happens, is literally the mathematical definition of idempotence which the programming concept is based on. That's the one I like the most, because I try to concentrate impurity to a small region of the overall program. In a language like Haskell, in some ways your hand is forced! But, as you say, it's biased toward a particular way of modeling state and effects. My point is, if a program is said to be idempotent if running it multiple times on the same input produces the same output, then you exclude the Haskell approach to idempotence. Half the point of `f(f(x)) = f(x)` is that the input f(x) is typically not the same input as x itself!
legorobot 5y ago
> This is a lovely way to look at it! I wish I had thought of that example too when I wrote about idempotency! I wrote a post about idempotence as well a couple months back (https://chrisprijic.com/idempotency-is-key/ https://chrisprijic.com/idempotency-is-key/) and use the definition: "its the output + side-effects that should remain the same, regardless of how many times the function with the same input is run". I had struggled with "on the same input" when I was putting the post together until I thought about how it usually is due to side-effects that idempotency becomes desirable.

by Twisol 5y ago

jimminy 5y ago

It's not really uncomfortably close to determinism, it is baseline deterministic which is necessary for the verification. The powerful part of idempotence is that it's deterministic + a verified assurance "as if we run it only once." Deterministic (but not idempotent): send_message(id=1, body) without verifying the state of id, could result in the message being received multiple times. Idempotent: send_message(id=1, body) would verify that the id token hadn't been consumed, before acting, thus only allowing the message to be sent one time.

Twisol 5y ago
In your second example, if you run `send_message(id=1, body)` once and then run `send_message(id=1, body)` again, it behaves differently the second time than the first time, despite receiving the same input. So `send_message` is idempotent, but its behavior is not determined by its inputs (i.e. it is not pure). If you imagine the hidden state that `send_message` reads and writes to be part of the input, then when you run it the second time, its inputs have changed. So it wouldn't be correct to say you're running it multiple times "on the same input". These details are not obvious from the given definition, and that's why I say it's uncomfortably close to purity. Idempotence is very much not about purity (though you can have both), and that's why I like the author's goal-oriented explanation better: it makes the role of state very explicit.
- jimminy 5y ago
  Yeah, my example was bad. I was more trying to point out that determinism of the intrinsic action is a pre-condition to the idempotency, in order to make and verify the assurance required. You could easily split the deterministic action, and comparison/verification against existing state into two different Pure functions. Being able to perform the verification separately is valuable for addressing the "at most once", "at least once", and "exactly once" assurance described in another comment in this the thread. I was casually opening my scope up to the outer state, in the example, to express the "assurance" portion of the definition. But you're correct, it's an erroneous example that doesn't pass the more rigorous definition of Pure Determinism, when applied the local scope of the function.

lmkg 5y ago

Idempotence is usually used when talking about effectful code. Modeling the state as part of the input/output seems to run counter to that purpose, because that's how you create a pure model of an effectful program. It's useful to talk about idempotence when running the function zero times is different than running it once, which is hard to do in that framing. As you say, "on the same input" is difficult to reconcile if the state is part of the input. If we consider the state to be part of the input, then it's easier to say that when f(x) = y, then f(y) = y as well. In other words, f(f(x)) = f(x). Which, as it just so happens, is literally the mathematical definition of idempotence which the programming concept is based on. In any case, this still gets to the same overall conclusion: the point is to arrive at a specific destination, not to move towards it. That shift of perspective is helpful in framing problems towards an idempotent solution.

Twisol 5y ago
> Idempotence is usually used when talking about effectful code. Agreed! The idempotent operation acts on some state; how that state is modeled is an independent concern. > In other words, f(f(x)) = f(x). Which, as it just so happens, is literally the mathematical definition of idempotence which the programming concept is based on. That's the one I like the most, because I try to concentrate impurity to a small region of the overall program. In a language like Haskell, in some ways your hand is forced! But, as you say, it's biased toward a particular way of modeling state and effects. My point is, if a program is said to be idempotent if running it multiple times on the same input produces the same output, then you exclude the Haskell approach to idempotence. Half the point of `f(f(x)) = f(x)` is that the input f(x) is typically not the same input as x itself!

legorobot 5y ago

> This is a lovely way to look at it! I wish I had thought of that example too when I wrote about idempotency! I wrote a post about idempotence as well a couple months back (https://chrisprijic.com/idempotency-is-key/ https://chrisprijic.com/idempotency-is-key/) and use the definition: "its the output + side-effects that should remain the same, regardless of how many times the function with the same input is run". I had struggled with "on the same input" when I was putting the post together until I thought about how it usually is due to side-effects that idempotency becomes desirable.