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In west coast cities, stop signs seem to serve the purpose of letting pedestrians exert their legal right of way where it would otherwise be taken by cars. With

In west coast cities, stop signs seem to serve the purpose of letting pedestrians exert their legal right of way where it would otherwise be taken by cars. Without stop signs, cars are not really likely to stop and pedestrians will wait until the road is simply clear rather than playing a one sided mortal game of chicken. The result is that cars can pretend that the pedestrian doesn't actually want to cross. With a stop sign, pedestrians can reason that a car has to stop for the stop sign, and so they will also be able to walk. That said I think stop signs is a terrible solution to this issue.

tyrfing 4y ago
Said it better than me, at the same time. It's also better than a fully controlled intersection with lights for pedestrians, since you don't have to wait for a light cycle or choose to cross on red. It's pretty sad to see people having to wait for a gap to sprint across a road, and little wonder that the situation perpetuates people driving everywhere - it's the safest and fastest way to even cross a street.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  But there's an even better alternative to that: pedestrian controlled lights. There is a main road in France I often take, in the south Paris (RN 20), that goes through a small town. There are traffic lights that are only there for the pedestrians. When there's no one there, they'll be green for cars. When there are pedestrians waiting, they can push a button that'll switch the lights. Instead of the repurposed stop sign, this has the advantage that cars can flow through without stopping at all when there are no pedestrians, which is basically always. I've only ever stopped there a handful of times.
throw_me_up 4y ago
I think roundabouts with pedestrian crossing lights solves the problem. Roundabouts alone also reduce accidents or make them less severe.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  They reduce car crashes with other cars. I don't know off the top of my head if they reduce car-pedestrian crashes but I suspect not. I used to live off of a busy roundabout in a place that makes heavy heavy use of roundabouts (almost no four-way stops). It felt dangerous as fuck honestly. The crosswalks are a little "downstream" of the true circle, where cars have already begun to exit. Frequently (saw this a few times myself) a car would stop for a pedestrian and then get rear-ended by another car focused on exiting the roundabout. This was not the US so unfamiliarity with roundabouts can't be blamed. They were the norm there.
  - throw_me_up 4y ago
    Did they have large, flashing crossing lights for pedestrians to turn on?
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      Not the one I lived by, but some of them did, yes!
- Misdicorl 4y ago
  How small can you make a roundabout? Where I live stop signs are common at very small intersections. Alternating two way stops (n/s at intersection one, e/w at intersection two) seems like maybe an ok way to reduce the problem by half at little to no cost?
  - ajb 4y ago
    The UK historically has lots of roundabouts, the design guidelines are here : https://www.google.com/url?q=https://trl.co.uk/uploads/trl/documents/PPR206_secure.PDF&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjZ-ua4_5b3AhXAQEEAHR1_AF4QFnoECAoQAg&usg=AOvVaw0ma_Cnbl_N5_1ZJ4h0doaH https://www.google.com/url?q=https://trl.co.uk/uploads/trl/d... Basically they recommend 28m diameter if you are going to have a central island, otherwise it should be a mini-roundabout (capable of being driven over)
Spivak 4y ago
I like the solution of the pedestrian triggered stop signs. The don’t literally say stop but they flash yellow and cars have to stop even if there’s no one in the street.
- horseradishjam 4y ago
  No. This is wrong. Disregard it, please. If you’re talking about at least California, that isn’t how those work, and please never stop at one unless it’s occupied. Those of us who read the book are expecting you to proceed through an empty crosswalk because we know the flashing yellow lights are legally advisory and often keep going long after the crosswalk is empty. Some even flash permanently. Every time you stop for an empty, flashing crosswalk, you’re risking a collision that you’ll probably get away with, but that will really be your fault deep down. This is quite simple: if a pedestrian is threatening to cross or actually crossing, whether the crosswalk is painted, flashing, not flashing because they didn’t push the button, or even merely implied by an unpainted intersection (another overlooked reason to read the book, given my pedestrian experience!), you yield. Otherwise keep moving. It’s that easy.
  - themadturk 4y ago
    It's this way with on-demand flashing pedestrian signals in my city in Washington as well, though honestly I see it in practice (and do it myself) without actually knowing what the law is. We also have at least one red light that is strictly for pedestrians that I find irritating every time it's triggered, since it requires a full stop cycle even if the person or persons using it cross quickly or not.
  - lovich 4y ago
    If you’re going by the book you should never be following another car closely enough that you can’t stop in time to avoid a collision, even if they come to a full stop unexpectedly.
    - horseradishjam 4y ago
      You clearly misunderstood the point of mentioning being rear ended, which wasn’t that I’d be rear ending you, but instead the dumbass who doesn’t know that. It was really a warning about property damage to your own car from stopping unnecessarily, which is why I mentioned legal and actual fault since we’re discussing California. And no, being rear ended is not an automatic “they should have been further away,” including potentially in this circumstance. Full stop in a travel lane on an interstate and report back on your fault determination if you survive. What is it about driving that makes threads personal? The person was totally wrong in a heavily-read forum is all, and that’s your cue to put me in my place for pointing it out or something?
dasil003 4y ago
> In west coast cities [...] ... outside of Berkeley.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
AuthorizedCust 4y ago
> stop signs seem to serve the purpose of letting pedestrians exert their legal right of way where it would otherwise be taken by cars So do clear pavement markings and yellow flashers.
- ivanech 4y ago
  Beg buttons with yellow flashers aren't nearly as strong a guarantee in my experience – more people blow through those than stop signs in my area
ivanech 4y ago
When I'm walking, I specifically plan routes with as many stop signs + as few stoplights for this reason.
Taniwha 4y ago
For those who live outside the US (or maybe outside California) in California there is a legal crosswalk (ie a 'zebra crossing') at EVERY uncontrolled (ie without lights) intersection, whether it is painted in or not, and pedestrians have absolute right of way (the trade off is that they are not allowed to cross anywhere along a block between intersections). I now live in NZ where mostly we have Yield/Give Way signs if anything, and pedestrians have no rights (also the neighbourhood speed limit is higher 30mph vs 25) - I'd love for us to have 4 way stops everywhere and slower speed limits everywhere
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- EdwardDiego 4y ago
  There's pedestrian crossings in NZ, but sounds like a lot fewer. Plenty of stop signs here though, but it kinda depends on where you're driving though. They're rather rare in cities now, either replaced by lights or roundabouts. And honestly, NZ road rules at a "4 way stop" confuse the crap of everyone, as they violate the general assumption of "just give way to your right". (E.g., I'm at a 4 way stop, I'm going straight, the person to my right has the right of way... ...if he's going straight. If he's turning, then I have right of way. Far more complex.) But there's still lots of them in the country still :)
  - Taniwha 4y ago
    US rules for 4-way stops are easier to deal with - if you are the first to come to a full stop you get to go first (people learn to judge that little jump on your shocks as you actually stop) then people take turns (N-S then E-W then N-S etc) - if it's unclear then the NZ-like rules take over. Yes NZ has occasional pedestrian crossings, but not at the one place we most need them (roundabouts) - what we don;t have are ubiquitous ones (at every intersection)
    - EdwardDiego 4y ago
      Fully agree on that.

tyrfing 4y ago

Said it better than me, at the same time. It's also better than a fully controlled intersection with lights for pedestrians, since you don't have to wait for a light cycle or choose to cross on red. It's pretty sad to see people having to wait for a gap to sprint across a road, and little wonder that the situation perpetuates people driving everywhere - it's the safest and fastest way to even cross a street.

vladvasiliu 4y ago
But there's an even better alternative to that: pedestrian controlled lights. There is a main road in France I often take, in the south Paris (RN 20), that goes through a small town. There are traffic lights that are only there for the pedestrians. When there's no one there, they'll be green for cars. When there are pedestrians waiting, they can push a button that'll switch the lights. Instead of the repurposed stop sign, this has the advantage that cars can flow through without stopping at all when there are no pedestrians, which is basically always. I've only ever stopped there a handful of times.

throw_me_up 4y ago

I think roundabouts with pedestrian crossing lights solves the problem. Roundabouts alone also reduce accidents or make them less severe.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
They reduce car crashes with other cars. I don't know off the top of my head if they reduce car-pedestrian crashes but I suspect not. I used to live off of a busy roundabout in a place that makes heavy heavy use of roundabouts (almost no four-way stops). It felt dangerous as fuck honestly. The crosswalks are a little "downstream" of the true circle, where cars have already begun to exit. Frequently (saw this a few times myself) a car would stop for a pedestrian and then get rear-ended by another car focused on exiting the roundabout. This was not the US so unfamiliarity with roundabouts can't be blamed. They were the norm there.
- throw_me_up 4y ago
  Did they have large, flashing crossing lights for pedestrians to turn on?
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    Not the one I lived by, but some of them did, yes!
Misdicorl 4y ago
How small can you make a roundabout? Where I live stop signs are common at very small intersections. Alternating two way stops (n/s at intersection one, e/w at intersection two) seems like maybe an ok way to reduce the problem by half at little to no cost?
- ajb 4y ago
  The UK historically has lots of roundabouts, the design guidelines are here : https://www.google.com/url?q=https://trl.co.uk/uploads/trl/documents/PPR206_secure.PDF&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjZ-ua4_5b3AhXAQEEAHR1_AF4QFnoECAoQAg&usg=AOvVaw0ma_Cnbl_N5_1ZJ4h0doaH https://www.google.com/url?q=https://trl.co.uk/uploads/trl/d... Basically they recommend 28m diameter if you are going to have a central island, otherwise it should be a mini-roundabout (capable of being driven over)

Spivak 4y ago

I like the solution of the pedestrian triggered stop signs. The don’t literally say stop but they flash yellow and cars have to stop even if there’s no one in the street.

horseradishjam 4y ago
No. This is wrong. Disregard it, please. If you’re talking about at least California, that isn’t how those work, and please never stop at one unless it’s occupied. Those of us who read the book are expecting you to proceed through an empty crosswalk because we know the flashing yellow lights are legally advisory and often keep going long after the crosswalk is empty. Some even flash permanently. Every time you stop for an empty, flashing crosswalk, you’re risking a collision that you’ll probably get away with, but that will really be your fault deep down. This is quite simple: if a pedestrian is threatening to cross or actually crossing, whether the crosswalk is painted, flashing, not flashing because they didn’t push the button, or even merely implied by an unpainted intersection (another overlooked reason to read the book, given my pedestrian experience!), you yield. Otherwise keep moving. It’s that easy.
- themadturk 4y ago
  It's this way with on-demand flashing pedestrian signals in my city in Washington as well, though honestly I see it in practice (and do it myself) without actually knowing what the law is. We also have at least one red light that is strictly for pedestrians that I find irritating every time it's triggered, since it requires a full stop cycle even if the person or persons using it cross quickly or not.
- lovich 4y ago
  If you’re going by the book you should never be following another car closely enough that you can’t stop in time to avoid a collision, even if they come to a full stop unexpectedly.
  - horseradishjam 4y ago
    You clearly misunderstood the point of mentioning being rear ended, which wasn’t that I’d be rear ending you, but instead the dumbass who doesn’t know that. It was really a warning about property damage to your own car from stopping unnecessarily, which is why I mentioned legal and actual fault since we’re discussing California. And no, being rear ended is not an automatic “they should have been further away,” including potentially in this circumstance. Full stop in a travel lane on an interstate and report back on your fault determination if you survive. What is it about driving that makes threads personal? The person was totally wrong in a heavily-read forum is all, and that’s your cue to put me in my place for pointing it out or something?

dasil003 4y ago

> In west coast cities [...] ... outside of Berkeley.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

AuthorizedCust 4y ago

> stop signs seem to serve the purpose of letting pedestrians exert their legal right of way where it would otherwise be taken by cars So do clear pavement markings and yellow flashers.

ivanech 4y ago
Beg buttons with yellow flashers aren't nearly as strong a guarantee in my experience – more people blow through those than stop signs in my area

ivanech 4y ago

When I'm walking, I specifically plan routes with as many stop signs + as few stoplights for this reason.

Taniwha 4y ago

For those who live outside the US (or maybe outside California) in California there is a legal crosswalk (ie a 'zebra crossing') at EVERY uncontrolled (ie without lights) intersection, whether it is painted in or not, and pedestrians have absolute right of way (the trade off is that they are not allowed to cross anywhere along a block between intersections). I now live in NZ where mostly we have Yield/Give Way signs if anything, and pedestrians have no rights (also the neighbourhood speed limit is higher 30mph vs 25) - I'd love for us to have 4 way stops everywhere and slower speed limits everywhere

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
EdwardDiego 4y ago
There's pedestrian crossings in NZ, but sounds like a lot fewer. Plenty of stop signs here though, but it kinda depends on where you're driving though. They're rather rare in cities now, either replaced by lights or roundabouts. And honestly, NZ road rules at a "4 way stop" confuse the crap of everyone, as they violate the general assumption of "just give way to your right". (E.g., I'm at a 4 way stop, I'm going straight, the person to my right has the right of way... ...if he's going straight. If he's turning, then I have right of way. Far more complex.) But there's still lots of them in the country still :)
- Taniwha 4y ago
  US rules for 4-way stops are easier to deal with - if you are the first to come to a full stop you get to go first (people learn to judge that little jump on your shocks as you actually stop) then people take turns (N-S then E-W then N-S etc) - if it's unclear then the NZ-like rules take over. Yes NZ has occasional pedestrian crossings, but not at the one place we most need them (roundabouts) - what we don;t have are ubiquitous ones (at every intersection)
  - EdwardDiego 4y ago
    Fully agree on that.