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So why are the Russians using the very specific small and flat turret-mounted type 'Javelin' cages? The article says they're not-designed for that and would be

So why are the Russians using the very specific small and flat turret-mounted type 'Javelin' cages? The article says they're not-designed for that and would be ineffective anyway and of course RPG has no top-attack (unless you're firing from a building, which as we've seen is tricky to get it to arm in time)... so why are they doing it?

Goronmon 5y ago
One easy answer is that something being ineffective doesn't mean people won't try it anyways.
- blamazon 5y ago
  In the /r/NonCredibleDefense subreddit, it's been called the "cope cage" among other similar mocking terms. https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/t9i7q2/cope_cage_is_becoming_credible_terminology_now_we/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/t9i7q2/...
  - ckozlowski 5y ago
    I'll submit another: TheChieftan on YouTube has referred to it as "emotional support armor". He posted a good video on his views (and cautions!) on some of this subject matter to date: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4
dragontamer 5y ago
You can't stop a Javelin. Its too sophisticated. If a Javelin is launched your tank is dead. > and of course RPG has no top-attack (unless you're firing from a building, which as we've seen is tricky to get it to arm in time) These tanks were planning to assault Kyiv. The assumption was that cheaper RPGs (such as the AT4) would be used against these tanks. The AT4 isn't designed to be used vs main-battle-tanks (AT4 has penetration of 450mm), the frontal-armor is too thick (500mm to 700mm effective frontal armor, depending on the tank, depending on the angle the attack hits from... Largely due to geometry, not physical thickness). But the "cope-cage" might be strong enough to deflect an attack against the turret (especially if the AT4 is "top down", because it was fired from an urban building). There's many, many, many weapons of war. There are many different types of "anti-armor" weapons. The Russians also know that the turret has the critical weakpoint of the tank: the autoloader. If the autoloader is hit, the entire tank's munitions blow up simultaneously (aka: cooks off), and everyone inside the tank dies. Protecting the turret with a "cope cage" (even if ineffective vs Javelins) to try and mitigate damage from other RPGs (AT4, RPG7, Panzerfaust 3) just makes sense. ---------- Javelins are the most expensive man-portable anti-tank weapon. There's relatively few of them (yes, I know USA sent thousands of Javelins, but we also sent far more simpler anti-tank weapons as well). Javelins are $170,000 per shot, and the AT4 is $1500. The other man-portable weapon discussed, NLAWs, are like $40,000, much cheaper than a Javelin but still an incredibly sophisticated and expensive weapon. Media ignores the cheap stuff (AT4, RPG7) because they're not really interesting. But those are probably the workhorses and the more common weapon in the battlefield.
- frickinLasers 5y ago
  nitpick--The AT4 is a recoil-less round with the propelling charge in the launch tube--not a Rocket-Propelled Grenade. I imaging firing one from inside a building would be a regrettable decision.
  - chipsa 5y ago
    Nit: RPG didn't stand for rocket propelled grenade. It's a Russian acronym: Ruchnoy Protivotankovy Granatomyot.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  I wonder who started calling them 'Javelin cages'?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- blamazon 5y ago
  Also in use in Ukraine presently are the Stugna-P, a domestically produced antitank weapon [1] as well as the German Panzerfaust 3 [2]. In the footage available online, the infantry are carrying a surprising quantity of all these types of weapons - It's a quirky group of antitank weapons from a bunch of different countries. There are videos circulating in Ukraine on how to use the more foreign systems. [3] [4] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skif_(anti-tank_guided_missile) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skif_(anti-tank_guided_missile... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerfaust_3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerfaust_3 [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQThjNgoQRY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQThjNgoQRY [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUDrLFrfr_s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUDrLFrfr_s
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    Stugna-P, Javelin, and NLAW all kinda have the same properties. They're large, bulky, and filled with a LOT of explosives. They also have a guidance system: laser for Stugna-P, some kind of computer for NLAW/Javelin, so these weapons can be shot at 1000 meters to 5000 meters and still hit their targets consistently. But since they're larger / heavier / more expensive, they are the primary-weapon of the soldier (or squad, in the case of Stugna-P). If you're equipped with one of these, your job is to kill tanks. ---------- Panzerfaust, AT4, RPG7 are variants of the same concept. They're more of a "sidearm" than anything. You don't really want to be facing down a tank with one. They are manually aimed and therefore only effective at 100m to 300m (depending on how good your aim is). Because they're smaller warheads (84-caliber for the AT4, yes its a pun/joke), they're less effective at penetrating armor. So you really want to use them vs lighter vehicles, such as IFVs instead of proper tanks. If you need to use it against a tank, you should aim for a weak point, like shooting from above, or hitting the side/rear armor. So your snipers / riflemen / machine gunners have a job, that's the 50-cal, or machine-gun. But what if they come across an enemy vehicle? Well, the AT4 / Panzerfaust are light enough to carry _WITH_ your other weapons. Its better than nothing, and light enough to be a secondary weapon. Alternatively, maybe you're in an environment where hitting the weak top-armor is possible (ex: Urban / high-rise building in Kyiv). Giving many, many cheap AT4 weapons out to the crowd of defenders will effectively kill even main-battle-tanks, if they are attacked at the proper angles / from their weakpoints.
ChuckNorris89 5y ago
Those aren't javelin cages, they're called "cope cages"[1], because they're just a psychological coping mechanism for the troops inside, but offer no protection against modern smart munitions like NLAW or Javelin. They're a relic since Russia's war in Chechnya where those cages could protect against ancient RPGs fired from buildings in narrow city streets. [1] https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/324/004/043.png https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/324/004/043...
- dragontamer 5y ago
  > They're a relic since Russia's war in Chechnya where those cages could protect against RPGs fired from buildings in narrow city streets. USA sent IIRC 3x as many "dumb" RPGs (the AT4) as Javelins, assuming that the Ukrainians would be fighting in narrow city streets. Turned out that urban warfare didn't really happen much. But... I think everyone's plan was for urban combat, and then everybody turned out to be wrong. On the USA side, not a big deal, we sent the wrong mix of weapons but we're fixing that with lend-lease / additional aid packages.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    Dumb RPGs are still very useful. Not every target is an armoured tank. An old RPG aimed at a fuel truck is very effective.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      It's more of a range thing. Hitting an enemy fuel truck from 5000m away is a lot safer than running up and shooting it at 200m. 200m shots are common in a city, because cover / concealment is everywhere. Sure, there are still trees and hills to hide in the countryside, but having the option for super long range really helps.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
baud147258 5y ago
the same author did another article on that subject, btw: https://www.tanknology.co.uk/post/russian-turret-cages https://www.tanknology.co.uk/post/russian-turret-cages
vpribish 5y ago
in urban environments an RPG could definitely be coming down from above.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  As I said - it's tricky to get them to arm in time. We've seen that problem in practice in videos from Ukraine.

Goronmon 5y ago

One easy answer is that something being ineffective doesn't mean people won't try it anyways.

blamazon 5y ago
In the /r/NonCredibleDefense subreddit, it's been called the "cope cage" among other similar mocking terms. https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/t9i7q2/cope_cage_is_becoming_credible_terminology_now_we/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/t9i7q2/...
- ckozlowski 5y ago
  I'll submit another: TheChieftan on YouTube has referred to it as "emotional support armor". He posted a good video on his views (and cautions!) on some of this subject matter to date: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4

dragontamer 5y ago

You can't stop a Javelin. Its too sophisticated. If a Javelin is launched your tank is dead. > and of course RPG has no top-attack (unless you're firing from a building, which as we've seen is tricky to get it to arm in time) These tanks were planning to assault Kyiv. The assumption was that cheaper RPGs (such as the AT4) would be used against these tanks. The AT4 isn't designed to be used vs main-battle-tanks (AT4 has penetration of 450mm), the frontal-armor is too thick (500mm to 700mm effective frontal armor, depending on the tank, depending on the angle the attack hits from... Largely due to geometry, not physical thickness). But the "cope-cage" might be strong enough to deflect an attack against the turret (especially if the AT4 is "top down", because it was fired from an urban building). There's many, many, many weapons of war. There are many different types of "anti-armor" weapons. The Russians also know that the turret has the critical weakpoint of the tank: the autoloader. If the autoloader is hit, the entire tank's munitions blow up simultaneously (aka: cooks off), and everyone inside the tank dies. Protecting the turret with a "cope cage" (even if ineffective vs Javelins) to try and mitigate damage from other RPGs (AT4, RPG7, Panzerfaust 3) just makes sense. ---------- Javelins are the most expensive man-portable anti-tank weapon. There's relatively few of them (yes, I know USA sent thousands of Javelins, but we also sent far more simpler anti-tank weapons as well). Javelins are $170,000 per shot, and the AT4 is $1500. The other man-portable weapon discussed, NLAWs, are like $40,000, much cheaper than a Javelin but still an incredibly sophisticated and expensive weapon. Media ignores the cheap stuff (AT4, RPG7) because they're not really interesting. But those are probably the workhorses and the more common weapon in the battlefield.

frickinLasers 5y ago
nitpick--The AT4 is a recoil-less round with the propelling charge in the launch tube--not a Rocket-Propelled Grenade. I imaging firing one from inside a building would be a regrettable decision.
- chipsa 5y ago
  Nit: RPG didn't stand for rocket propelled grenade. It's a Russian acronym: Ruchnoy Protivotankovy Granatomyot.
chrisseaton 5y ago
I wonder who started calling them 'Javelin cages'?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
blamazon 5y ago
Also in use in Ukraine presently are the Stugna-P, a domestically produced antitank weapon [1] as well as the German Panzerfaust 3 [2]. In the footage available online, the infantry are carrying a surprising quantity of all these types of weapons - It's a quirky group of antitank weapons from a bunch of different countries. There are videos circulating in Ukraine on how to use the more foreign systems. [3] [4] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skif_(anti-tank_guided_missile) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skif_(anti-tank_guided_missile... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerfaust_3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerfaust_3 [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQThjNgoQRY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQThjNgoQRY [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUDrLFrfr_s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUDrLFrfr_s
- dragontamer 5y ago
  Stugna-P, Javelin, and NLAW all kinda have the same properties. They're large, bulky, and filled with a LOT of explosives. They also have a guidance system: laser for Stugna-P, some kind of computer for NLAW/Javelin, so these weapons can be shot at 1000 meters to 5000 meters and still hit their targets consistently. But since they're larger / heavier / more expensive, they are the primary-weapon of the soldier (or squad, in the case of Stugna-P). If you're equipped with one of these, your job is to kill tanks. ---------- Panzerfaust, AT4, RPG7 are variants of the same concept. They're more of a "sidearm" than anything. You don't really want to be facing down a tank with one. They are manually aimed and therefore only effective at 100m to 300m (depending on how good your aim is). Because they're smaller warheads (84-caliber for the AT4, yes its a pun/joke), they're less effective at penetrating armor. So you really want to use them vs lighter vehicles, such as IFVs instead of proper tanks. If you need to use it against a tank, you should aim for a weak point, like shooting from above, or hitting the side/rear armor. So your snipers / riflemen / machine gunners have a job, that's the 50-cal, or machine-gun. But what if they come across an enemy vehicle? Well, the AT4 / Panzerfaust are light enough to carry _WITH_ your other weapons. Its better than nothing, and light enough to be a secondary weapon. Alternatively, maybe you're in an environment where hitting the weak top-armor is possible (ex: Urban / high-rise building in Kyiv). Giving many, many cheap AT4 weapons out to the crowd of defenders will effectively kill even main-battle-tanks, if they are attacked at the proper angles / from their weakpoints.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago

Those aren't javelin cages, they're called "cope cages"[1], because they're just a psychological coping mechanism for the troops inside, but offer no protection against modern smart munitions like NLAW or Javelin. They're a relic since Russia's war in Chechnya where those cages could protect against ancient RPGs fired from buildings in narrow city streets. [1] https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/324/004/043.png https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/324/004/043...

dragontamer 5y ago
> They're a relic since Russia's war in Chechnya where those cages could protect against RPGs fired from buildings in narrow city streets. USA sent IIRC 3x as many "dumb" RPGs (the AT4) as Javelins, assuming that the Ukrainians would be fighting in narrow city streets. Turned out that urban warfare didn't really happen much. But... I think everyone's plan was for urban combat, and then everybody turned out to be wrong. On the USA side, not a big deal, we sent the wrong mix of weapons but we're fixing that with lend-lease / additional aid packages.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  Dumb RPGs are still very useful. Not every target is an armoured tank. An old RPG aimed at a fuel truck is very effective.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    It's more of a range thing. Hitting an enemy fuel truck from 5000m away is a lot safer than running up and shooting it at 200m. 200m shots are common in a city, because cover / concealment is everywhere. Sure, there are still trees and hills to hide in the countryside, but having the option for super long range really helps.
- dragonwriter 5y ago

baud147258 5y ago

the same author did another article on that subject, btw: https://www.tanknology.co.uk/post/russian-turret-cages https://www.tanknology.co.uk/post/russian-turret-cages

vpribish 5y ago

in urban environments an RPG could definitely be coming down from above.

chrisseaton 5y ago
As I said - it's tricky to get them to arm in time. We've seen that problem in practice in videos from Ukraine.