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This isn’t really a source though, it’s requiring the other commenter to prove the point you made. Anecdotally, I know people who buy single family homes and r

This isn’t really a source though, it’s requiring the other commenter to prove the point you made. Anecdotally, I know people who buy single family homes and rent them for profit. My 3 bed, 2 bath single-family home has a $3,000/monthly mortgage, I could easily rent it for more than $3,500 (closer to $4,000). Take out 10% for maintenance fees, and I net $200 a month.

bombcar 4y ago
That shows exactly the point, 10% for maintenance isn't enough, doesn't cover taxes, insurance, and other costs, and netting $200/month on a (assumed) $450k+ house isn't great, that's less than the interest earned on a deposit of the same amount. Even if you only count the downpayment, $2400 a year on $90k is a 2.6% return; you therefore are getting the majority of your return from appreciation. To actually make a profit on the rental portion, you need to discount the appreciation. You can do this if you're paying into a mortgage from 20 years ago and renting at todays prices, but that's just ignoring the fact that you could sell the property. The biggest risk that most small landlords don't account for is a bad tenant - they exist and they will quickly eat through your $200/net a month. The final proof is no company anywhere is building single-family rentals. If there was money to be made there, they would; but you need to get to apartments and the cost-savings inherent in them before it makes sense.
- mdorazio 4y ago
  You realize that a mortgage is a loan, right? You’re paying both interest and equity on it over time, which you need to take into account. The longer you pay it, the more of your payments are really going right back into your own pocket. Renters get zero equity in exchange for their rent. And yes, I’ll agree that some portion of the ROI on a house is the expected appreciation, but we’ve setup a system where that’s effectively guaranteed in many locations and simultaneously unavailable to renters. There’s a reason “be a landlord” is now the go-to “get rich” strategy for a large number of people.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  You seem to be assuming that a rental property is subject to a mortgage. I don't know how what fraction of the US rental property is covered by mortgages, but it is definitely not 100%. For those that are not, your math is totally wrong. I've been a landlord of a non-mortgaged property and am about to become one again (reluctantly). We charge a below market rental rate, and typically make around 4-6% (pretax) of the nominal property value a year (we typically divert 1-2% of the rent into a maintainance fund).
- long_time_gone 4y ago
  > Even if you only count the downpayment, $2400 a year on $90k is a 2.6% return; you therefore are getting the majority of your return from appreciation. I would also getting the increased equity in the house as each mortgage payment lowers the total loan amount.
s1artibartfast 4y ago
How many years would it take to recoup your down payment if the home value doesn't change? If you pocket 500 per month, you are looking at around 35 years to break even on a $200k down payment. You will never break even when take into account opportunity cost compared to a low appreciation bond or stock.
- long_time_gone 4y ago
  > If you pocket 500 per month, you are looking at around 35 years to break even on a $200k down payment. Not sure your definition of break even. After 30 years, I will have paid off the entire house.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    Key word down payment. You put 200k down on the rental and get 200k in rent. You pay 1.6 million on a 800k loan and own the house at the end. Without appreciation, you are 600k in the hole
    - kudu 4y ago
      I don't understand where the 1.6 million came from. If you're talking about interest on the loan, the premise was that the rent covers the mortgage payment (interest and capital) plus maintenance plus returns some net cash. In that case, when the net cash has returned enough to cover the downpayment, you'd be richer by the entire value of the house even without appreciation.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        You are correct. Renters cover the mortgage and you are neutral at 35 years. Not in bebt
        kudu 4y ago
        So, for your 200k downpayment, you now have 200k * 1.047^35 = 1MM as the total house value that you own even without house appreciation, so almost a 5% rate of return.
marcus0x62 4y ago
Average expenses for a landlord on a well-managed SFH run 45 - 50% of gross rents.
- Cd00d 4y ago
  I find this extremely dubious based on my own experiences with renting and home maintenance. You need a citation to be at all credible.
  - diob 4y ago
    Maybe they mean they need that much to live purely off the rental income, for their hands are like gelatin desserts. :) https://i.redd.it/f0kl4a40cl861.jpg https://i.redd.it/f0kl4a40cl861.jpg
jjav 4y ago
> Anecdotally, I know people who buy single family homes and rent them for profit. My 3 bed, 2 bath single-family home has a $3,000/monthly mortgage, I could easily rent it for more than $3,500 (closer to $4,000). Take out 10% for maintenance fees, and I net $200 a month. In other words, you could not make a profit. You need to consider all costs, not just mortgage. Taxes, insurance, maintenance, repairs, downtime (when it sits empty between renters). If your mortgage is $3000 and you can only rent it for less than $4000, you can't make a profit. I go through this math often while daydreaming of renting my house and retiring somewhere cheaper. There isn't any scenario I can come up with where it would actually be profitable.

bombcar 4y ago

That shows exactly the point, 10% for maintenance isn't enough, doesn't cover taxes, insurance, and other costs, and netting $200/month on a (assumed) $450k+ house isn't great, that's less than the interest earned on a deposit of the same amount. Even if you only count the downpayment, $2400 a year on $90k is a 2.6% return; you therefore are getting the majority of your return from appreciation. To actually make a profit on the rental portion, you need to discount the appreciation. You can do this if you're paying into a mortgage from 20 years ago and renting at todays prices, but that's just ignoring the fact that you could sell the property. The biggest risk that most small landlords don't account for is a bad tenant - they exist and they will quickly eat through your $200/net a month. The final proof is no company anywhere is building single-family rentals. If there was money to be made there, they would; but you need to get to apartments and the cost-savings inherent in them before it makes sense.

mdorazio 4y ago
You realize that a mortgage is a loan, right? You’re paying both interest and equity on it over time, which you need to take into account. The longer you pay it, the more of your payments are really going right back into your own pocket. Renters get zero equity in exchange for their rent. And yes, I’ll agree that some portion of the ROI on a house is the expected appreciation, but we’ve setup a system where that’s effectively guaranteed in many locations and simultaneously unavailable to renters. There’s a reason “be a landlord” is now the go-to “get rich” strategy for a large number of people.
PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
You seem to be assuming that a rental property is subject to a mortgage. I don't know how what fraction of the US rental property is covered by mortgages, but it is definitely not 100%. For those that are not, your math is totally wrong. I've been a landlord of a non-mortgaged property and am about to become one again (reluctantly). We charge a below market rental rate, and typically make around 4-6% (pretax) of the nominal property value a year (we typically divert 1-2% of the rent into a maintainance fund).
long_time_gone 4y ago
> Even if you only count the downpayment, $2400 a year on $90k is a 2.6% return; you therefore are getting the majority of your return from appreciation. I would also getting the increased equity in the house as each mortgage payment lowers the total loan amount.

s1artibartfast 4y ago

How many years would it take to recoup your down payment if the home value doesn't change? If you pocket 500 per month, you are looking at around 35 years to break even on a $200k down payment. You will never break even when take into account opportunity cost compared to a low appreciation bond or stock.

long_time_gone 4y ago
> If you pocket 500 per month, you are looking at around 35 years to break even on a $200k down payment. Not sure your definition of break even. After 30 years, I will have paid off the entire house.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  Key word down payment. You put 200k down on the rental and get 200k in rent. You pay 1.6 million on a 800k loan and own the house at the end. Without appreciation, you are 600k in the hole
  - kudu 4y ago
    I don't understand where the 1.6 million came from. If you're talking about interest on the loan, the premise was that the rent covers the mortgage payment (interest and capital) plus maintenance plus returns some net cash. In that case, when the net cash has returned enough to cover the downpayment, you'd be richer by the entire value of the house even without appreciation.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      You are correct. Renters cover the mortgage and you are neutral at 35 years. Not in bebt
      - kudu 4y ago
        So, for your 200k downpayment, you now have 200k * 1.047^35 = 1MM as the total house value that you own even without house appreciation, so almost a 5% rate of return.

marcus0x62 4y ago

Average expenses for a landlord on a well-managed SFH run 45 - 50% of gross rents.

Cd00d 4y ago
I find this extremely dubious based on my own experiences with renting and home maintenance. You need a citation to be at all credible.
- diob 4y ago
  Maybe they mean they need that much to live purely off the rental income, for their hands are like gelatin desserts. :) https://i.redd.it/f0kl4a40cl861.jpg https://i.redd.it/f0kl4a40cl861.jpg

jjav 4y ago

> Anecdotally, I know people who buy single family homes and rent them for profit. My 3 bed, 2 bath single-family home has a $3,000/monthly mortgage, I could easily rent it for more than $3,500 (closer to $4,000). Take out 10% for maintenance fees, and I net $200 a month. In other words, you could not make a profit. You need to consider all costs, not just mortgage. Taxes, insurance, maintenance, repairs, downtime (when it sits empty between renters). If your mortgage is $3000 and you can only rent it for less than $4000, you can't make a profit. I go through this math often while daydreaming of renting my house and retiring somewhere cheaper. There isn't any scenario I can come up with where it would actually be profitable.