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OMG This isn’t a war of expansion and colonization This is about encirclement, nato, missiles on the border, warm water access No value judgment in the right

OMG This isn’t a war of expansion and colonization This is about encirclement, nato, missiles on the border, warm water access No value judgment in the right or wrong of it

jotm 5y ago
Why would you willingly choose to believe a dictator?
- zaphirplane 5y ago
  The premise of the question is not correct
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Eh? They invaded a neighbouring sovereign country and murdered tens of thousands of civilians, what do you mean "no value judgment in the right or wrong of it"? I mean if the people in eastern Ukraine or Crimea WANTED to join Russia, there's democratic and peaceful ways to go about it. If Russia wanted access to the Black Sea, there's peaceful ways to go about it, like trade and freedom of commerce agreements like Europe has.
- zaphirplane 5y ago
  I am not commenting on the right or wrong of the war, addressing the motivation
- fock 5y ago
  > I mean if the people in eastern Ukraine or Crimea WANTED to join Russia, there's democratic and peaceful ways to go about it. You remember Zelensky was elected on the narrative he'd bring peace. For that there was Minsk which was not good and giving in to force, but well, implementing it would have been a hell of a lot better than what's happening now. Yet, he wasn't able to achieve that? Maybe Ukraine isn't the center of democracy the State Department made it into the past 2 months.
  - mynameisvlad 5y ago
    Zelensky can't possibly control what another country does, how is it his fault that another country unilaterally decided to invade theirs? This is just straight up victim blaming.
  - megous 5y ago
    So why Minsk agreements failed? There seems to have been a major decrease in ceasefire violations per OSCE during COVID years (to 1/3rd). So it seems a bit weird for Russia to escalate now, if calming the situation down was the Russian overall goal. And certainly if Russian so care about people's lives, orders of magnitude more are dying now than in the last few years.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    I don't think Ukraine got a say in the yes/no decision for this invasion. Apparently the only person that got to influence it was Xi but he somehow forgot to pass on the facts to the relevant parties.
  - federoccco 5y ago
    Under Zelenskiy situation in Donbas was de-escalating. Implementation of Minsk agreement the way Russia wanted it to happen was not on his agenda nor it was supported by majority of Ukrainian electorate. Ukraine is a democracy, whether you like it or not.
sofixa 5y ago
> encirclement, A hostile Ukraine, or a conquered Ukraine, only bring more enemies on Russia's borders. > nato, > missiles on the border What missiles? There's already Poland, Baltics, Turkey, Romania that can be used for missile bases. > warm water access That's the bullshitiest one of the bullshit list - first, Russia already controls Sevastopol, and before the occupation of Crimea, it had a joint lease on it. And of course, it has hundreds of kilometres of Black Sea coastline to the east of Crimea, including the sizable port and naval base of Novorosiisk. Russia is providing enough fake excuses ( Ukraine isn't a real nation, Nazis) as it is, no need to add even faker ones for them.
unionpivo 5y ago
Bullshit. They state quite clearly that they want to annex part or even whole of Ukraine. Sure what you say may have played the role also. But Putin wants "glory days" of SU back. That's why he continuously tried to expand Russia (and Russian influence) since he came into power. It's about him being a power broker on international scale and not another has been dictator of 3rd world country. Nato was just used as an excuse. Because of the submarines and ballistic missiles, It doesn't matters where weapons are. And nothing excuses them for what we are seeing what is happening on the ground.

OMG This isn’t a war of expansion and colonization This is about encirclement, nato, missiles on the border, warm water access No value judgment in the right or wrong of it

jotm 5y ago

Why would you willingly choose to believe a dictator?

zaphirplane 5y ago
The premise of the question is not correct

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

Eh? They invaded a neighbouring sovereign country and murdered tens of thousands of civilians, what do you mean "no value judgment in the right or wrong of it"? I mean if the people in eastern Ukraine or Crimea WANTED to join Russia, there's democratic and peaceful ways to go about it. If Russia wanted access to the Black Sea, there's peaceful ways to go about it, like trade and freedom of commerce agreements like Europe has.

zaphirplane 5y ago
I am not commenting on the right or wrong of the war, addressing the motivation
fock 5y ago
> I mean if the people in eastern Ukraine or Crimea WANTED to join Russia, there's democratic and peaceful ways to go about it. You remember Zelensky was elected on the narrative he'd bring peace. For that there was Minsk which was not good and giving in to force, but well, implementing it would have been a hell of a lot better than what's happening now. Yet, he wasn't able to achieve that? Maybe Ukraine isn't the center of democracy the State Department made it into the past 2 months.
- mynameisvlad 5y ago
  Zelensky can't possibly control what another country does, how is it his fault that another country unilaterally decided to invade theirs? This is just straight up victim blaming.
- megous 5y ago
  So why Minsk agreements failed? There seems to have been a major decrease in ceasefire violations per OSCE during COVID years (to 1/3rd). So it seems a bit weird for Russia to escalate now, if calming the situation down was the Russian overall goal. And certainly if Russian so care about people's lives, orders of magnitude more are dying now than in the last few years.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  I don't think Ukraine got a say in the yes/no decision for this invasion. Apparently the only person that got to influence it was Xi but he somehow forgot to pass on the facts to the relevant parties.
- federoccco 5y ago
  Under Zelenskiy situation in Donbas was de-escalating. Implementation of Minsk agreement the way Russia wanted it to happen was not on his agenda nor it was supported by majority of Ukrainian electorate. Ukraine is a democracy, whether you like it or not.

sofixa 5y ago

> encirclement, A hostile Ukraine, or a conquered Ukraine, only bring more enemies on Russia's borders. > nato, > missiles on the border What missiles? There's already Poland, Baltics, Turkey, Romania that can be used for missile bases. > warm water access That's the bullshitiest one of the bullshit list - first, Russia already controls Sevastopol, and before the occupation of Crimea, it had a joint lease on it. And of course, it has hundreds of kilometres of Black Sea coastline to the east of Crimea, including the sizable port and naval base of Novorosiisk. Russia is providing enough fake excuses ( Ukraine isn't a real nation, Nazis) as it is, no need to add even faker ones for them.

unionpivo 5y ago

Bullshit. They state quite clearly that they want to annex part or even whole of Ukraine. Sure what you say may have played the role also. But Putin wants "glory days" of SU back. That's why he continuously tried to expand Russia (and Russian influence) since he came into power. It's about him being a power broker on international scale and not another has been dictator of 3rd world country. Nato was just used as an excuse. Because of the submarines and ballistic missiles, It doesn't matters where weapons are. And nothing excuses them for what we are seeing what is happening on the ground.