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NATO provides weapons, reconnaissance, mercenaries and political support to Ukraine, not to mention full scale economic war on Russia. Ukrainian Army was train

by vogre 5y ago

NATO provides weapons, reconnaissance, mercenaries and political support to Ukraine, not to mention full scale economic war on Russia. Ukrainian Army was trained by NATO instructors. The only thing the Ukraine is providing really in this war is cannon fodder.

jacquesm 5y ago
I don't think I subscribe to your worldview. The way I look at it: in 2014 an otherwise peaceful Ukraine was invaded by its far larger and far stronger neighbor who entrenched themselves after robbing a bunch of territory on a pretext. Ukraine learned the hard way that they were underprepared, changed tactics and dramatically improved their military, while at the same time due to internal issues (mostly corruption) their larger neighbors saw the quality of their army decline. Then, in recent times Russia decided that just having the Eastern part of Ukraine wasn't enough because those pesky Ukrainians were showing other countries in their sphere of influence (notably: Belarus, Georgia) that it was possible for a country to lift itself out of poverty by aligning with the West. A complete lack of realistic estimates of operational readiness, underestimation of the Ukrainian resolve and a significant propaganda effort later the larger neighbor decided to finish what they started in 2014, which is roughly where we are today. The West obviously stands a lot to gain from Ukraine not ending up in the same way as Belarus and so has a strong motivation to ensure that the new Russian imperialist effort fails. This, plus the fact that housing another 40 million refugees is not an option suffices to explain why the West is fairly eager to support Ukraine in its defense against Russia.
- vogre 5y ago
  - TheGigaChad 5y ago
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    > That's only shows you don't know nothing about the context of the conflict. I think I'll bow out of the discussion here, whenever people start posting that video there isn't much left to talk about.
    - vogre 5y ago
      Actually this is very multilayered conflict, which can not be described in two sentences. The narrative "big bad Russia against small peaceful Ukraine" is very simplistic, and only leads to support of escalation of conflict.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        Sorry, but after checking through your comment history I can no longer take your participation in this forum serious. If we had an 'ignore' feature I'd use it right about now, not because I disagree with you but because I don't think you are arguing in good faith. FWIW: Big bad Russia against small peaceful Ukraine is the reality far more than any alternative that you might want to supply.
      - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
        Who started said conflict though.
        vogre 5y ago
        Should I start with Peter The Great and Mazepa?
        jonwithoutanh 5y ago
        you should be banned
  - jabl 5y ago
    Ah, the good old "she was asking for it" school of international relations.
    - rhga 5y ago
      - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
        Bruh, did you really just try to use victim blaming as an excuse? Who does the assaulting in this case? Which side is a criminal? Please, think about what the actual fuck you're implying here.
        alienicecream 5y ago
        If you walk in to a lion cage at the zoo and tease the lions is it victim blaming to point out that you're making a mistake?
        jacquesm 5y ago
        Are you seriously comparing Putin to an animal and Russia to a zoo?
  - astine 5y ago
    You should actually watch that video rather than just posting it. Mearsheimer's whole thesis, that Russia is trying to "wreck" Ukraine in order to keep it out of NATO and wasn't motivated by territorial expansion has been falsified by the most recent invasion. Mearcheimer actually claimed in the video that you are linking that Russia wouldn't launch a full scale invasion because that would go against it's geo-strategic interests and yet here we are.
    - vogre 4y ago
      Russia tried to avoid involving in Donbass for 8 years meddling with Minsk-2. It's still not sure if it will take Donbass. All the new captured parts of Ukraine are becoming new or join existing "People's Republics". I won't be surprised if after the end of campaign, there still will be independent republics and some shaky agreement that will be broken by Ukraine in the first week. Even first plan was apparently to overthrow government, not to gain some land. On other hand, the tactics of West/Zelensky is to destroy the East as much as possible, killing as many people as possible, destroying as much infrastructure as possible.
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        This is so completely out of touch with reality it makes me worried for your health.
Crusoe123 5y ago
Tell me again which weapons have downed the flagship of the Russian Black Sea fleet?
- vogre 5y ago
  Nobody knows for sure, but I think it was Neptune missile guided by US RQ-4B Global Hawk, that is flying over Black Sea after false attack by Turkish(also NATO member) Bayraktar TB2.
trhway 5y ago
>NATO provides weapons, reconnaissance, mercenaries and political support to Ukraine, not to mention full scale economic war on Russia. Not standing idle while Russian Nazist regime genocides Ukrainians speaks great of NATO. >Ukrainian Army was trained by NATO instructors. and it shows. There is a reason people try to get to best schools. At the same time it is obvious from its performance that Russia hasn't gone to school at least for the last several decades. Btw, the video of the mightiest Black Sea missile cruiser whose main purpose was to provide air-defense to the naval group being hit by Ukrainian missile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uXT3kOZGNE&t=73s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uXT3kOZGNE&t=73s
- vogre 5y ago
  Even this video is a fake. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um3_6NM6II4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um3_6NM6II4 Cruiser was hit indeed, but this footage is from completely different event.
agapon 5y ago
Except that most of that started only after Russia's invasion plans became apparent. Ukraine been asking for support ever since 2014, received only a little of it. Also, "cannon fodder"? Ukrainian army defends its people and its country. Russian soldiers are truly cannon fodder for Russian imperialists.
- alienicecream 5y ago
  Direct quotes from the US state department website: Ukraine is a key regional strategic partner that has undertaken significant efforts to reform its military and increase its interoperability with NATO. Since 2014, the United States has committed more than $5.6 billion in total assistance to Ukraine, including security and non-security assistance. In 2021 alone we committed over $300 million in assistance to support Ukraine’s democratic and economic development, and over $650 million in security assistance. https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-ukraine/ https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-ukraine/
jotm 5y ago
Hah, the equipment doesn't matter if your military are a bunch of untrained dumbfucks. But yeah, NATO is helping a lot. There's no shortage of volunteers in Ukraine (and abroad), the forces are full, they're not accepting people even in support positions anymore. It's Russia who's providing the cannon fodder.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Ukraine was attacked by Russia against international law. Do you believe Russia should get away with it? And before there's a whataboutism reply, I also do not agree with a lot of the US' aggression, and they and their leaders should be tried for war crimes.
- vogre 5y ago
  The law should be consistent, clear and applied to everyone. If US leaders were not tried for Iraq, French weren't tried for Lybia, Saudis weren't tried for Yemen, Israel weren't tried for Palestine, but suddenly Russia should be destroyed for Ukraine, it's not the law.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    > but suddenly Russia should be destroyed for Ukraine I must have missed the bit where people started calling for Russia's destruction. TBH it has surprised me that Ukraine hasn't carried out a lot more behind-the-lines attacks on Russian supply convoys; I'm aware of just one attack on a Russian fuel dump inside Russia. It's as if they are fearful that an attack on Russian territory might lead to retaliation. But isn't Russia already 'retaliating' as much as it can?
    - vogre 5y ago
      >Ukraine hasn't carried out a lot more behind-the-lines attacks on Russian supply convoys It's hard to do on Russian territory because of closed borders and anti-air. It's hard to do on captured eastern territories because there are too many ethnic Russian and Russian-speaking people live here, who are quite sympathetic to Russia. And there are rumors that FSB acquired the lists of all pro-ukrainian activists on these territories from SBU. And no, Russia has not even start to retaliate.
      - denton-scratch 5y ago
        I supposed that such behind-the-lines operations would be covert sabotage, drones or missiles - not air attacks or invasions.
yobbo 5y ago
> The only thing the Ukraine is providing Ukraine is providing leadership, initiative, and massive amounts of weaponry on their own. Zelensky is asking western governments for more every week. As for cannon fodder, civilian casualties are most likely much greater than military casualties at this point, and will likely get worse. Add to that the all the material destruction. The cost in human lives would be far greater without western aid.
federoccco 5y ago
How many tanks, fighter jets, SAMs, navy ships, cruise/ballistic missiles has NATO provided to Ukraine? The way Ukraine fights is not in adherence to some NATO standards

by vogre 5y ago

jacquesm 5y ago

I don't think I subscribe to your worldview. The way I look at it: in 2014 an otherwise peaceful Ukraine was invaded by its far larger and far stronger neighbor who entrenched themselves after robbing a bunch of territory on a pretext. Ukraine learned the hard way that they were underprepared, changed tactics and dramatically improved their military, while at the same time due to internal issues (mostly corruption) their larger neighbors saw the quality of their army decline. Then, in recent times Russia decided that just having the Eastern part of Ukraine wasn't enough because those pesky Ukrainians were showing other countries in their sphere of influence (notably: Belarus, Georgia) that it was possible for a country to lift itself out of poverty by aligning with the West. A complete lack of realistic estimates of operational readiness, underestimation of the Ukrainian resolve and a significant propaganda effort later the larger neighbor decided to finish what they started in 2014, which is roughly where we are today. The West obviously stands a lot to gain from Ukraine not ending up in the same way as Belarus and so has a strong motivation to ensure that the new Russian imperialist effort fails. This, plus the fact that housing another 40 million refugees is not an option suffices to explain why the West is fairly eager to support Ukraine in its defense against Russia.

vogre 5y ago
- TheGigaChad 5y ago
- jacquesm 5y ago
  > That's only shows you don't know nothing about the context of the conflict. I think I'll bow out of the discussion here, whenever people start posting that video there isn't much left to talk about.
  - vogre 5y ago
    Actually this is very multilayered conflict, which can not be described in two sentences. The narrative "big bad Russia against small peaceful Ukraine" is very simplistic, and only leads to support of escalation of conflict.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Sorry, but after checking through your comment history I can no longer take your participation in this forum serious. If we had an 'ignore' feature I'd use it right about now, not because I disagree with you but because I don't think you are arguing in good faith. FWIW: Big bad Russia against small peaceful Ukraine is the reality far more than any alternative that you might want to supply.
    - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
      Who started said conflict though.
      - vogre 5y ago
        Should I start with Peter The Great and Mazepa?
        jonwithoutanh 5y ago
        you should be banned
- jabl 5y ago
  Ah, the good old "she was asking for it" school of international relations.
  - rhga 5y ago
    - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
      Bruh, did you really just try to use victim blaming as an excuse? Who does the assaulting in this case? Which side is a criminal? Please, think about what the actual fuck you're implying here.
      - alienicecream 5y ago
        If you walk in to a lion cage at the zoo and tease the lions is it victim blaming to point out that you're making a mistake?
        jacquesm 5y ago
        Are you seriously comparing Putin to an animal and Russia to a zoo?
- astine 5y ago
  You should actually watch that video rather than just posting it. Mearsheimer's whole thesis, that Russia is trying to "wreck" Ukraine in order to keep it out of NATO and wasn't motivated by territorial expansion has been falsified by the most recent invasion. Mearcheimer actually claimed in the video that you are linking that Russia wouldn't launch a full scale invasion because that would go against it's geo-strategic interests and yet here we are.
  - vogre 4y ago
    Russia tried to avoid involving in Donbass for 8 years meddling with Minsk-2. It's still not sure if it will take Donbass. All the new captured parts of Ukraine are becoming new or join existing "People's Republics". I won't be surprised if after the end of campaign, there still will be independent republics and some shaky agreement that will be broken by Ukraine in the first week. Even first plan was apparently to overthrow government, not to gain some land. On other hand, the tactics of West/Zelensky is to destroy the East as much as possible, killing as many people as possible, destroying as much infrastructure as possible.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      This is so completely out of touch with reality it makes me worried for your health.

Crusoe123 5y ago

Tell me again which weapons have downed the flagship of the Russian Black Sea fleet?

vogre 5y ago
Nobody knows for sure, but I think it was Neptune missile guided by US RQ-4B Global Hawk, that is flying over Black Sea after false attack by Turkish(also NATO member) Bayraktar TB2.

trhway 5y ago

>NATO provides weapons, reconnaissance, mercenaries and political support to Ukraine, not to mention full scale economic war on Russia. Not standing idle while Russian Nazist regime genocides Ukrainians speaks great of NATO. >Ukrainian Army was trained by NATO instructors. and it shows. There is a reason people try to get to best schools. At the same time it is obvious from its performance that Russia hasn't gone to school at least for the last several decades. Btw, the video of the mightiest Black Sea missile cruiser whose main purpose was to provide air-defense to the naval group being hit by Ukrainian missile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uXT3kOZGNE&t=73s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uXT3kOZGNE&t=73s

vogre 5y ago
Even this video is a fake. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um3_6NM6II4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um3_6NM6II4 Cruiser was hit indeed, but this footage is from completely different event.

agapon 5y ago

Except that most of that started only after Russia's invasion plans became apparent. Ukraine been asking for support ever since 2014, received only a little of it. Also, "cannon fodder"? Ukrainian army defends its people and its country. Russian soldiers are truly cannon fodder for Russian imperialists.

alienicecream 5y ago
Direct quotes from the US state department website: Ukraine is a key regional strategic partner that has undertaken significant efforts to reform its military and increase its interoperability with NATO. Since 2014, the United States has committed more than $5.6 billion in total assistance to Ukraine, including security and non-security assistance. In 2021 alone we committed over $300 million in assistance to support Ukraine’s democratic and economic development, and over $650 million in security assistance. https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-ukraine/ https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-ukraine/

jotm 5y ago

Hah, the equipment doesn't matter if your military are a bunch of untrained dumbfucks. But yeah, NATO is helping a lot. There's no shortage of volunteers in Ukraine (and abroad), the forces are full, they're not accepting people even in support positions anymore. It's Russia who's providing the cannon fodder.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

Ukraine was attacked by Russia against international law. Do you believe Russia should get away with it? And before there's a whataboutism reply, I also do not agree with a lot of the US' aggression, and they and their leaders should be tried for war crimes.

vogre 5y ago
The law should be consistent, clear and applied to everyone. If US leaders were not tried for Iraq, French weren't tried for Lybia, Saudis weren't tried for Yemen, Israel weren't tried for Palestine, but suddenly Russia should be destroyed for Ukraine, it's not the law.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  > but suddenly Russia should be destroyed for Ukraine I must have missed the bit where people started calling for Russia's destruction. TBH it has surprised me that Ukraine hasn't carried out a lot more behind-the-lines attacks on Russian supply convoys; I'm aware of just one attack on a Russian fuel dump inside Russia. It's as if they are fearful that an attack on Russian territory might lead to retaliation. But isn't Russia already 'retaliating' as much as it can?
  - vogre 5y ago
    >Ukraine hasn't carried out a lot more behind-the-lines attacks on Russian supply convoys It's hard to do on Russian territory because of closed borders and anti-air. It's hard to do on captured eastern territories because there are too many ethnic Russian and Russian-speaking people live here, who are quite sympathetic to Russia. And there are rumors that FSB acquired the lists of all pro-ukrainian activists on these territories from SBU. And no, Russia has not even start to retaliate.
    - denton-scratch 5y ago
      I supposed that such behind-the-lines operations would be covert sabotage, drones or missiles - not air attacks or invasions.

yobbo 5y ago

> The only thing the Ukraine is providing Ukraine is providing leadership, initiative, and massive amounts of weaponry on their own. Zelensky is asking western governments for more every week. As for cannon fodder, civilian casualties are most likely much greater than military casualties at this point, and will likely get worse. Add to that the all the material destruction. The cost in human lives would be far greater without western aid.

federoccco 5y ago

How many tanks, fighter jets, SAMs, navy ships, cruise/ballistic missiles has NATO provided to Ukraine? The way Ukraine fights is not in adherence to some NATO standards