7 ms·

Ukraine was a threat to Russia's security in the same way a short skirt is a threat to a rapist.

by oezi 5y ago

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
Um.. the comment is ridiculously dismissive. While I do not support Russian invasion, from a purely strategic POV, Ukraine under western control is a national security issue for Russia. I am not sure how that is a controversial statement.
- Crusoe123 5y ago
  If not being able to set a government of a neighboring country and completely controlling it is a security issue for Russia then maybe they should be the ones to rethink their security policy and ask themselves why so many neighboring countries want to align towards the west. That is a different ballpark than being under the control of west which implies that the west has somehow taken over Ukraine. Your comment is ridiculously cynical and dehumanizing. It's disgusting to me how many people act like Ukrainian people have no agency by themselves and act like Russia was forced to do an invasion because they feel threatened by the west.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
    << Your comment is ridiculously cynical and dehumanizing. It's disgusting to me how many people act like Ukrainian people have no agency by themselves and act like Russia was forced to do an invasion because they feel threatened by the west. I disagree on several points. I do not think it is cynical at all. It is factual. It approaches reality for what it is and explains existing circumstances. Frankly, I do not think it is dehumanizing either. For better or worse, war and struggle is an integral part of human condition. If anything, what is happening makes average person realize what is real. << If not being able to set a government of a neighboring country and completely controlling it is a security issue for Russia then maybe they should be the ones to rethink their security policy. Russia's leadership did and decided that since their personal figurehead was deposed in aftermath of Maidan eventually resulting in West-oriented leader, they might as well get directly involved. You may not like their decision, but they did exactly what you suggested. << That is a different ballpark than being under the control of west which implies that the west has somehow taken over Ukraine. You are right. It is. Being under US umbrella ( or sphere of influence ) is, to me at least, better than being under Russia's. Prentending big powers don't 'influence' small players seems naive to me though. It is not being cynical. It is just recognizing pattern in human history of the past few thousand years. West did not take Ukraine. Yet. In fact, part of the reason of the war is whose sphere of influence Ukraine will belong to. << It's disgusting to me how many people act like Ukrainian people have no agency by themselves and act like Russia was forced to do an invasion because they feel threatened by the west. They absolutely do. However, right now that agency was limited to choosing who to align with. I am not sure what is disgusting about it. Can you elaborate? It is possible I am misunderstanding your argument.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > Ukraine under western control is a national security issue for Russia It is. But this is a straw man. It’s always been. Ukraine hasn’t been seriously considered for NATO membership since 2008. Even its path to the EU was muddled at best. Some effects of the war, e.g. Ukraine being flooded with Western weapons where it wasn’t before or Germany pivoting away from Russia, were unpredictable. But some, like the response in Finland and Sweden, or the Baltics’ remilitarisation, were. Ukraine was and is falling under the control of the Ukrainians, and that remains the problem for Putin—not Russia.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
    << Ukraine was and is falling under the control of the Ukrainians, and that remains the problem for Putin—not Russia. Is your argument that Putin does not represent Russia? I am genuinely struggling a little with parsing this response. Can you elaborate a little?
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      Putin isn't acting in a manner that furthers Russia's interest. Just his own, personally. Russia has been totally screwed by this invasion. Strategically, economically and geopolitically. Putin, however, has consolidated his personal power. He has also opened up east Ukraine's mineral resources to himself and his cronies.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
        Could not the same be easily claimed about Iraq and Bush?
        JumpCrisscross 5y ago
        > Could not the same be easily claimed about Iraq and Bush? Yes, to an extent. The harm to America was far less than what Russia's facing. And the benefits to Bush et al less than what Putin hopes to reap. Bush could retire in peace. Putin can't. Risking his country's destruction for a few more years in power wouldn't make sense for an American President; it does for Putin.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  > While I do not support Russian invasion, from a purely strategic POV, Ukraine under western control is a national security issue for Russia. Does the west threaten Russia's security? Do they have plans to invade Russia? Because that would be news to me. It seems awfully defensive to me, especially coming from a country (Russia) that has been an aggressor for a long time, testing European defenses and readiness for a long time now. How often has the Russian air force intercepted European war planes?
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
    <<Does the west threaten Russia's security? Do they have plans to invade Russia? Um.. I will respond in line with HN policy ( assume good faith ), but contingency plans do exist for various scenarios. Countries that do not have those are likely not going to be countries for long.
- yobbo 5y ago
  What we call "with western freedoms", you call "under western control". But you are wrong. The west will mostly ally itself (as best it can) with champions of its values, whether they be Ukrainians, Russians, or any other ethnicity. This is the actual threat to the regime in Moscow.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
    But... does not your statement effectively support my argument? A threat to regime in Moscow is a threat to Russia? What am I missing? Can you elaborate?
    - yobbo 5y ago
      People in the west, generally, choose to view the regime in Moscow as bearing most of the responsibility for the high level of inequality and poverty in Russia, through corruption and abuse. The beginnings of democracy in Ukraine demonstrates a roadmap for a potential Russian future. Democracy is a threat to the current regime in Moscow, but is not a threat to the Russian people.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
        It is a reasonable interpretation though I will admit I disagree with it. I have no problem separating people from their government. That said, I am not sure the regime in Moscow - come to think of it, any regime - feels the same way. I guess what I am saying is that you might be missing a forest for the trees. Democracy is a threat to Putin only in a sense that his control over Ukraine weakened with ouster of Yanukovych. He was fine with democracy as long as 'his' candidate won. Now, we can argue over whether Ukraine was a democracy, but I am not sure that is a good or even worthwhile argument to have.
- oezi 5y ago
  But - Ukraine isn't under Western control - Ukraine wasn't a security concern for Russia (didn't pursue NATO, was shunned by the west regarding military aid) - Even if a country is a concern to another, it just isn't acceptable to go on a genocidal war and take all civilian casualties as collateral damage.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
    I addressed the other two points in other posts and I don't really want to repeat it. Still, this one caught my attention: << Even if a country is a concern to another, it just isn't acceptable to go on a genocidal war and take all civilian casualties as collateral damage. Yes? And yet it is seems to be happening all the time. In a very practical sense, it is kinda hard to enforce the kind of protections needed not to offend certain sensibilities. There is a reason war is not something one should haphazardly go into. Don't get me wrong. I don't really want to discourage your moral outrage over how the world should be and how it apparently is. You are saying it is not acceptable, but the world is on the verge of accepting it. It is only US pressure that might, and I am stressing might, change the outcome here. Decided to edit after all: << Ukraine isn't under Western control Qualified yes. What do you think this war is about? Freedom? Democracy? It is not a trick question. There are a lot of players, power centers and interested parties and they all have their agendas. For Poland, it is about having a buffer zone. For US, it is about who controls Ukraine. Up until recently it was controlled by Russia. That control slipped with ouster of Yanukovych ( and we can spend some time discussing to what extent western powers influenced that ouster ). I don't want to spend too much time on this though, because I am worried we do not share the same background when it comes to the region. << Ukraine wasn't a security concern for Russia (didn't pursue NATO, was shunned by the west regarding military aid) Um.. citation and some dates may be needed to back up that claim. Still, for the sake of argument let us assume, none of the previous administrations did; not just US, but EU as well. Details are kind of messy. Still, why would Ukraine be a security concern while their personal puppet was governing Ukraine? I am being serious here. It was the orange revolution and Georgia that changed the calculus. NATO membership became an issue after a west-looking leadership was elected.
Gollapalli 5y ago
- Crusoe123 5y ago
  I disagree, I think it's a masterful way to counter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law
- oezi 5y ago
  I don't think an analogy can be a lie and I find it rather fitting. Ukraine has been molested by Russia since 2014. Ukraine wasn't focussed on threatening Russia (far from it) but Ukraine was focussed on bettering their lives and keeping Russia away from escalating in the Donbass. Russia willfully engaged in a war of aggression to make Ukraine a vassal state in line with Belarus.

Ukraine was a threat to Russia's security in the same way a short skirt is a threat to a rapist.

by oezi 5y ago

Ukraine was a threat to Russia's security in the same way a short skirt is a threat to a rapist.

Um.. the comment is ridiculously dismissive. While I do not support Russian invasion, from a purely strategic POV, Ukraine under western control is a national security issue for Russia. I am not sure how that is a controversial statement.

Crusoe123 5y ago
If not being able to set a government of a neighboring country and completely controlling it is a security issue for Russia then maybe they should be the ones to rethink their security policy and ask themselves why so many neighboring countries want to align towards the west. That is a different ballpark than being under the control of west which implies that the west has somehow taken over Ukraine. Your comment is ridiculously cynical and dehumanizing. It's disgusting to me how many people act like Ukrainian people have no agency by themselves and act like Russia was forced to do an invasion because they feel threatened by the west.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  << Your comment is ridiculously cynical and dehumanizing. It's disgusting to me how many people act like Ukrainian people have no agency by themselves and act like Russia was forced to do an invasion because they feel threatened by the west. I disagree on several points. I do not think it is cynical at all. It is factual. It approaches reality for what it is and explains existing circumstances. Frankly, I do not think it is dehumanizing either. For better or worse, war and struggle is an integral part of human condition. If anything, what is happening makes average person realize what is real. << If not being able to set a government of a neighboring country and completely controlling it is a security issue for Russia then maybe they should be the ones to rethink their security policy. Russia's leadership did and decided that since their personal figurehead was deposed in aftermath of Maidan eventually resulting in West-oriented leader, they might as well get directly involved. You may not like their decision, but they did exactly what you suggested. << That is a different ballpark than being under the control of west which implies that the west has somehow taken over Ukraine. You are right. It is. Being under US umbrella ( or sphere of influence ) is, to me at least, better than being under Russia's. Prentending big powers don't 'influence' small players seems naive to me though. It is not being cynical. It is just recognizing pattern in human history of the past few thousand years. West did not take Ukraine. Yet. In fact, part of the reason of the war is whose sphere of influence Ukraine will belong to. << It's disgusting to me how many people act like Ukrainian people have no agency by themselves and act like Russia was forced to do an invasion because they feel threatened by the west. They absolutely do. However, right now that agency was limited to choosing who to align with. I am not sure what is disgusting about it. Can you elaborate? It is possible I am misunderstanding your argument.
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> Ukraine under western control is a national security issue for Russia It is. But this is a straw man. It’s always been. Ukraine hasn’t been seriously considered for NATO membership since 2008. Even its path to the EU was muddled at best. Some effects of the war, e.g. Ukraine being flooded with Western weapons where it wasn’t before or Germany pivoting away from Russia, were unpredictable. But some, like the response in Finland and Sweden, or the Baltics’ remilitarisation, were. Ukraine was and is falling under the control of the Ukrainians, and that remains the problem for Putin—not Russia.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  << Ukraine was and is falling under the control of the Ukrainians, and that remains the problem for Putin—not Russia. Is your argument that Putin does not represent Russia? I am genuinely struggling a little with parsing this response. Can you elaborate a little?
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    Putin isn't acting in a manner that furthers Russia's interest. Just his own, personally. Russia has been totally screwed by this invasion. Strategically, economically and geopolitically. Putin, however, has consolidated his personal power. He has also opened up east Ukraine's mineral resources to himself and his cronies.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
      Could not the same be easily claimed about Iraq and Bush?
      - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
        > Could not the same be easily claimed about Iraq and Bush? Yes, to an extent. The harm to America was far less than what Russia's facing. And the benefits to Bush et al less than what Putin hopes to reap. Bush could retire in peace. Putin can't. Risking his country's destruction for a few more years in power wouldn't make sense for an American President; it does for Putin.
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
> While I do not support Russian invasion, from a purely strategic POV, Ukraine under western control is a national security issue for Russia. Does the west threaten Russia's security? Do they have plans to invade Russia? Because that would be news to me. It seems awfully defensive to me, especially coming from a country (Russia) that has been an aggressor for a long time, testing European defenses and readiness for a long time now. How often has the Russian air force intercepted European war planes?
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  <<Does the west threaten Russia's security? Do they have plans to invade Russia? Um.. I will respond in line with HN policy ( assume good faith ), but contingency plans do exist for various scenarios. Countries that do not have those are likely not going to be countries for long.
yobbo 5y ago
What we call "with western freedoms", you call "under western control". But you are wrong. The west will mostly ally itself (as best it can) with champions of its values, whether they be Ukrainians, Russians, or any other ethnicity. This is the actual threat to the regime in Moscow.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  But... does not your statement effectively support my argument? A threat to regime in Moscow is a threat to Russia? What am I missing? Can you elaborate?
  - yobbo 5y ago
    People in the west, generally, choose to view the regime in Moscow as bearing most of the responsibility for the high level of inequality and poverty in Russia, through corruption and abuse. The beginnings of democracy in Ukraine demonstrates a roadmap for a potential Russian future. Democracy is a threat to the current regime in Moscow, but is not a threat to the Russian people.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
      It is a reasonable interpretation though I will admit I disagree with it. I have no problem separating people from their government. That said, I am not sure the regime in Moscow - come to think of it, any regime - feels the same way. I guess what I am saying is that you might be missing a forest for the trees. Democracy is a threat to Putin only in a sense that his control over Ukraine weakened with ouster of Yanukovych. He was fine with democracy as long as 'his' candidate won. Now, we can argue over whether Ukraine was a democracy, but I am not sure that is a good or even worthwhile argument to have.
oezi 5y ago
But - Ukraine isn't under Western control - Ukraine wasn't a security concern for Russia (didn't pursue NATO, was shunned by the west regarding military aid) - Even if a country is a concern to another, it just isn't acceptable to go on a genocidal war and take all civilian casualties as collateral damage.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  I addressed the other two points in other posts and I don't really want to repeat it. Still, this one caught my attention: << Even if a country is a concern to another, it just isn't acceptable to go on a genocidal war and take all civilian casualties as collateral damage. Yes? And yet it is seems to be happening all the time. In a very practical sense, it is kinda hard to enforce the kind of protections needed not to offend certain sensibilities. There is a reason war is not something one should haphazardly go into. Don't get me wrong. I don't really want to discourage your moral outrage over how the world should be and how it apparently is. You are saying it is not acceptable, but the world is on the verge of accepting it. It is only US pressure that might, and I am stressing might, change the outcome here. Decided to edit after all: << Ukraine isn't under Western control Qualified yes. What do you think this war is about? Freedom? Democracy? It is not a trick question. There are a lot of players, power centers and interested parties and they all have their agendas. For Poland, it is about having a buffer zone. For US, it is about who controls Ukraine. Up until recently it was controlled by Russia. That control slipped with ouster of Yanukovych ( and we can spend some time discussing to what extent western powers influenced that ouster ). I don't want to spend too much time on this though, because I am worried we do not share the same background when it comes to the region. << Ukraine wasn't a security concern for Russia (didn't pursue NATO, was shunned by the west regarding military aid) Um.. citation and some dates may be needed to back up that claim. Still, for the sake of argument let us assume, none of the previous administrations did; not just US, but EU as well. Details are kind of messy. Still, why would Ukraine be a security concern while their personal puppet was governing Ukraine? I am being serious here. It was the orange revolution and Georgia that changed the calculus. NATO membership became an issue after a west-looking leadership was elected.

Gollapalli 5y ago

Crusoe123 5y ago
I disagree, I think it's a masterful way to counter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law
oezi 5y ago
I don't think an analogy can be a lie and I find it rather fitting. Ukraine has been molested by Russia since 2014. Ukraine wasn't focussed on threatening Russia (far from it) but Ukraine was focussed on bettering their lives and keeping Russia away from escalating in the Donbass. Russia willfully engaged in a war of aggression to make Ukraine a vassal state in line with Belarus.